Why the vitriol over Kratom?

[Kelleytoons]

While I haven't been with the Kratom community for more than five or six months (I started with the pro-Kratom reddit group) I was aware there was an anti-Kratom reddit. I see here it's also been mentioned several times but I didn't pay much mind or attention to it.

Then Hamilton did an interview recently about Kratom research (not the show he did several years ago but a brand new interview) and I commented on the YouTube channel on how much I appreciated his efforts on this. And then - wow.

I've never seen such vicious, unwarranted attacks on people (not so much me, luckily). Honestly, Kratom couldn't have been talked about any worse than if it were rat poison. Many folks prefaced their remarks with how long they had been taking it (so the assumption was they knew what they were doing or at least weren't anti-Kratom without having used it) but all said how terrible it was, how it ruined and killed people and... well, I won't go on but you get the picture.

What is this all about? Are these simply (or mostly) just addictive personality types that couldn't handle ANY substance, let alone one as benign as our leaf? (Some folks mentioned they were doing 60 grams a day. SIXTY!?) Or are they shills for Big Pharma?

ANYTHING can be abused - even too much water can kill. But Kratom is one of the nicest things around and I just don't understand the hatred for it that is out there. Have any of you run into this before?

[onespeedstop]

What is this all about? Are these simply (or mostly) just addictive personality types that couldn't handle ANY substance, let alone one as benign as our leaf? (Some folks mentioned they were doing 60 grams a day. SIXTY!?) Or are they shills for Big Pharma?

Pretty sure this the reason. Also, it's Reddit, people there love to hate on stuff, just anything. Another possibility is some folks had bad experiences with it because they were overly sensitive to it, and had some problems or 'bad trips' or whatever. Look at the number of members of that sub reddit has compared to the normal kratom one, it's just another loud minority of people.

[Emanresu14]

Yes they are over dramatic, addictive personalities and just general Karens. Over on r/quittingkratom it's insane. People talking about how it's harder to quit than heroin and how they are experiencing PAWS like a YEAR later . Come on son, get real. They are just running fake WD symptoms in their mind and believing that kratom still has a hold on them lol. When I was taking A LOT of powder about 6 months after I started, I did get some WD symptoms...for like a day when I went CT. Didn't get restless legs or sweats or yawns, just got REALLY tired. Like have to sleep NOW tired. Then that's it. It lasted until I fell asleep then nothing else. I think you probably know there are REALLY weird and crazy ppl out there. That's exactly what they are. That old TV show "My strange addiction" had a bunch of them . One guy was addicted to eating foam mattresses lol. I got to the quittingkratom sub every once in a while and have a laugh, but then kind of feel bad because there's probably some mental illness there.

[Kelleytoons]

Thanks for the replies, makes me feel better.

Yeah, some of them would say things like "I've been trying for six months and during my withdrawal it was far worse than heroin" and I'm thinking - hey, one time I stopped for a week and while I missed it the first day by the second it was over (I wasn't playing tennis that week so didn't take it).

But it worries me there is this vocal minority out there because they can certainly impact legislation.

[Jking]

Well people hate, and fear what they don’t understand. It’s natural because it’s much easier to come up with inaccurate assumptions about this leaf than to actually research it. Most people are just going to believe the first thing that pops up when you search kratom. It takes time, and effort to read through all the Bull, and get the facts even if it proves what you thought wrong. These people are not going to do this as it’s much easier to just conjure some opinions with no facts, or real information going into to forming that opinion. Most people are just going to look at what they don’t like about it instead of actually getting the facts because its easier, and has the added benefit of making them feel right/ better about themselves by arguing on a herb they are clueless about. I do not comment on what I don’t know, and admit when I don’t. If someone was like they take some random herb everyday I would look it up, and get the facts before I would discuss this with them. Even then I wouldn’t berate them even if they were on heroin if it didn’t affect me because at the end of the day we are responsible for our choices. I don’t feel it’s my place to tell someone how to live their life but if there actions affects me than that’s different. Former everything addict but mostly heroin. Anyone thinking the withdrawals from kratom are worse than heroin is lying because this not possible.

[Totomman]

Every mind altering, non big pharma substance is. They have a point though with 99% of kratom. Not ours but most kratom is bulk from oversees and no oversight. But even MJ was demonized and it grown in the usa, regulated and very hard to be adulterated. Imo, kratom is too easy to be adulterated, dirty, not properly grown etc. imo, buying kratom from “x-kratom” is dangerous. Imo, buying any random powder is dangerous. I but some herbs from Etsy and I feel that’s “risky”

[BundyMcDiggyDoodles]

A bit of all of that really. But I feel like commenters on videos tend to be more follow the herd pretend they know things. I blame alot of the hate on kratom to scott gotlieb. He tried to do the same thing to kratom that he tried to do to vaping. Paint it as some wild devil that killed people and yada yada yada.

I would assume there are probably some that may have tried kratom and even less they may have been long term users of kratom. And addictive personality types tend to need to portray they hate the thing they were addicted too as a way to not run back to it. These are just my opinions but who really knows. They may not even be real people just AI in the matrix made to respond.

[BallzDeep9]

A bit of all of that really. But I feel like commenters on videos tend to be more follow the herd pretend they know things. I blame alot of the hate on kratom to Scott Gottlieb.

yeah Kratom Hate... haters gonna hate. Isn't that "The Internet" now ? Haters on, where did they move to ? Telegram ? After getting kicked off Reddit 4 years ago, moved to Voat, then Parler, now... Kratom's just tip of the iceberg. We can't have anything good, because a minority of haters gonna ruin it for everyone else. Hate for doctors, teachers. Hate for Science. Hate for government... Scott Gottlieb, appointed by Donald Rump...

Everything's going to shit - 20 Years of BS, is my observation - Mass Shooting in Buffalo, NY by some 18-year old jerk... People are angry, after the Pandemic (which was predicted by doctors and scientists, 20 years ago!)... We've NOW got a National Epidemic of Mass Stupidity - nobody reads books or watches the News. Idiots on the Internet, on their stupid phones.

The Backlash against Kratom, was expected, and makes sense - Can't have anything "good" like Kratom. . It's too complicated. It's definitely A threat to Big Pharma. It's also a threat to Big Cannabis - there is TONS of money invested in Weed, they don't want people finding out about Kratom!!

EDIT to cut some of my irrelevant political diatribe

[add to descartes]

Yes they are over dramatic, addictive personalities and just general Karens. Over on r/quittingkratom it's insane. People talking about how it's harder to quit than heroin and how they are experiencing PAWS like a YEAR later . Come on son, get real. They are just running fake WD symptoms in their mind and believing that kratom still has a hold on them lol. When I was taking A LOT of powder about 6 months after I started, I did get some WD symptoms...for like a day when I went CT. Didn't get restless legs or sweats or yawns, just got REALLY tired. Like have to sleep NOW tired. Then that's it. It lasted until I fell asleep then nothing else. I think you probably know there are REALLY weird and crazy ppl out there. That's exactly what they are. That old TV show "My strange addiction" had a bunch of them . One guy was addicted to eating foam mattresses lol. I got to the quittingkratom sub every once in a while and have a laugh, but then kind of feel bad because there's probably some mental illness there.

if you're taking 60 grams a day for an extended period of time, the withdrawal is actually pretty bad. I wouldn't put it in the same category as heroin wd though. I agree that most people who are demonizing kratom are prone to overstating their experience, but I don't believe they're just making it up out of whole cloth. i don't think it's right to totally minimize their stories or dismiss those claims as just being weird or crazy, but I also don't think it's right to do what they are doing.

here's what happened to me: (warning: long post)

I was taking 30 grams a day for a couple years. something happened and I was forced to CT. it was average withdrawal, not terrible but by no means pleasant. it seemed to start to get better after a few days, but about a week in, I started having the cold sweats, where my lower back and neck in particular felt hot and cold at the same time, it's one of the main wd symptoms I associate with wd. I could hardly sleep, maybe two or three hours, tossing and turning all night. it was not restful sleep. I had pronounced anxiety, and just felt shaky and "off." there's no doubt in my mind it was withdrawal-related, I've literally been in opioid withdrawal hundreds of times, and it was the same exact symptoms...I am aware of the placebo effect and psychosomatics, and this wasn't it. I was expecting to feel better, but I felt like I was going backwards.

it wasn't like full blown, acute withdrawal, but it was uncomfortable, and it wouldn't go away, even after 2 weeks. I eventually got to see a doctor and got prescribed clonidine, which helped immensely. clonidine is commonly used in opioid withdrawal, and it's really helps the symptoms. I felt a great deal better that day, and over the next few weeks I felt back to normal, more or less.

your experience isn't going to be everyone's experience. some people, especially ex- or current addicts, are more prone to withdrawal. while it's possible they are exaggerating to some degree, it's not totally unrealistic. had I not got clonidine, idk how long it would have lasted. I still went back to kratom, knowing of the potential side effects, and to me it's worth it. for me, the benefits far outweigh the risks. it's not the same for everyone.

I would never go out of my way to make it look bad after years of it helping me. I wouldn't have believed it before I actually went through it, I thought it was completely harmless. but the risks are there if you're seriously abusing it, taking huge amounts long term. if that was what a 30 grams CT was, I can only imagine how 60 would be.

I do not condone what those people are doing, with the fear mongering about kratom. just because they can't use it responsibly is no reason to try to ruin it for everyone. they are completely responsible for their own actions and what they put into their bodies. they put themselves in that situation, they ought to blame themselves and not the kratom, because kratom is helpful to so many people... it just has to be used in moderation, like everything else.

[Kelleytoons]

So maybe the real answer is that folks who genuinely fear Kratom should provide their experiences as a cautionary tale of not doing it to excess. I mean, the same can EASILY be said of the number one drug problem we have. A problem FAR bigger than opioids, crack, cocaine, or any of the current du jour drugs that the press loves to demonize - alcohol.

It's not even close how bad alcohol is, nor how many addicts there are, how many people it kills (many not even on the drug) nor how much cost is associated with the drug that ALL of us end up paying. And yet there are millions of folks happily touting it, selling it, making a fortune off it, and supporting the industries. I am in no way opposed to alcohol - far from it. I am, however, opposed to the hypocrisy of so many folks who decry all the "drug addiction" while ignoring the main one.

If you take anything without moderation you can end up in trouble. Kratom is no different. Why folks think it is still amazes me.

[Lokey]

I know one of the women spearheading the crusade against it her son died and she swears it was kratom, a couple others saying the same about a brother or boyfriend. They say autopsy shows no other substances. Doesn't mean they tested all substances or had unknown health conditions. A girl recently posted how kratom w/d is just as bad or worse than heroin in a group called I Love Kratom or Kratom for Health (can't currently remember). I got her post deleted, she's plain out wrong!

[mivanqua]

I know one of the women spearheading the crusade against it her son died and she swears it was kratom, a couple others saying the same about a brother or boyfriend. They say autopsy shows no other substances. Doesn't mean they tested all substances or had unknown health conditions. A girl recently posted how kratom w/d is just as bad or worse than heroin in a group called I Love Kratom or Kratom for Health (can't currently remember). I got her post deleted, she's plain out wrong!

Fucking.rigbt man! Thanks for being diligent. Reddit is bought and paid for these days, the government has it on lock. People from all walks of idiocy ACTUALLY SHILLIN' whatever they are paid to shill, in this case, just like Google, trying to sell you some horse shit dressed up as concern/worry. That first page of "kratom" searches on Google probably cost a pretty penny for Uncle Sam by itself (AND Kracken ) Its hard to imagine a day when Google wasn't a sales platform but actually a legitimate source of information. That day DID exist though, and then they weaponized it. Reddit is the same now. Weaponized. Or as they like to say RADICALIZED!

[Kelleytoons]

Yes, the internet in some ways is more of a wild wild west than when it first started. Or perhaps it's better to categorize it as organized propaganda. No matter which side of the aisle you roam, Big Money basically controls the information to suit itself.

That woman who spearheaded the anti-Kratom - was that the one in Florida that got the city council to outlaw it? (I think here in Florida only Sarasota Springs has it outlawed). If so, the documentary "Leaf of Faith" shows she was WRONG - there were many other substances in her son's body and he was a known addict for a LOT of stuff. It just happened he also liked his Kratom tea. TEA, mind you! Not something you could make all that strong and something he was buying from a tea shop (so not even making it himself). The whole thing was just plain misguided but folks seldom want to face the facts. In her son's case, he would have died no matter what the laws were.

I'm glad we have this forum and I'm glad to be a member.

[Lokey]

I believe it's someone else and will research who. There's a FB group 50/50 dedicated to outing kratom scammers and they also talk about the anti crusaders.
It is Wendy Halpen, I think from Tennessee