Suddenly came to an epiphany, need some solid advice

[LisaLis]

**Edited to add**** This is NOT a Kratom hate post, I promise. I am just having some anxiety over a realization that I never thought of and need proper reassurance.

I would love some advice from people who have done extensive reading and research on Kratom, especially from the veterans that we have here. I have been taking Kratom for about 3 years now and I love it I really do. However, as much as I like it I have always been a little bit afraid of it. My fear has always been from heavy metals and nasty bacteria such as salmonella and E-coli. Until a thought came rushing to me that made the blood drain out of my face. Something that I have never thought of and I kind of feel like an idiot. Fucking pesticides!!! I am one to by organic this and organic that and wash the hell out of my vegatables yet I have been consuming a product for 3 years that I have no clue as the source of origin and most likely has crazy pesticides that are not even legal in the US. I'm kind of freaking out here guys! After realizing this I am on hour 40 of no Kratom whatsoever despite some slight withdrawal effects. Please please tell me I am not right. Is there solid evidence that this crop is NOT sprayed with cheap unsafe pesticides? Or is it one of those things that we just cannot truly know. I just ordered $60 worth of Kratom the other day and I am just not sure if I am going to throw it right in the dumpster when it gets here. Help.

[LisaLis]

Also this is not a Kratom hate post because I really do want to use it, I am very fond of it. I just need answers.

[fusedflora]

**Edited to add**** This is NOT a Kratom hate post, I promise. I am just having some anxiety over a realization that I never thought of and need proper reassurance.

I would love some advice from people who have done extensive reading and research on Kratom, especially from the veterans that we have here. I have been taking Kratom for about 3 years now and I love it I really do. However, as much as I like it I have always been a little bit afraid of it. My fear has always been from heavy metals and nasty bacteria such as salmonella and E-coli. Until a thought came rushing to me that made the blood drain out of my face. Something that I have never thought of and I kind of feel like an idiot. Fucking pesticides!!! I am one to by organic this and organic that and wash the hell out of my vegatables yet I have been consuming a product for 3 years that I have no clue as the source of origin and most likely has crazy pesticides that are not even legal in the US. I'm kind of freaking out here guys! After realizing this I am on hour 40 of no Kratom whatsoever despite some slight withdrawal effects. Please please tell me I am not right. Is there solid evidence that this crop is NOT sprayed with cheap unsafe pesticides? Or is it one of those things that we just cannot truly know. I just ordered $60 worth of Kratom the other day and I am just not sure if I am going to throw it right in the dumpster when it gets here. Help.

First, indo is a third world country.... even on the plantations, they don't use pesticides on the plants (I've not seen them all, but the ones I have they didn't, there's exceptions to everything). You're right to be more concerned with the bios/metals.

Second, realistically, you wouldn't need to.... The alkaloids the kratom trees produce are an evolution trait of the plant. In saying, they have a very specific purpose... to keep bugs from eating it. It's the same for poppies (i.e. locusts).

Comparatively with cocoa, shrimp, canned fish, and other plant products, kratom is about on par in respect to metals. Though this is obviously dependent on how often and how much you use. It might not be the kratom that you should be concerned about if you're going to the all you can eat shrimp fest at Red Lobster and enjoy a keto high tuna-fish cocoa/coffee diet.

Examples of other metal levels in other plant products:
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jfq/2018/5908463/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281312/

We're not discrediting your concerns, they're very valid, we're only putting them into perspective from plant based industry standard. Seafood can be worse/better depending on shrimp/prawns and farm/wild and same with fish.

Regardless, I would say is if you're that worried about all the above, you should perhaps consider making tea and filtering out the plant matter with paper filters. The high intensity of heat will kill most biologicals and most of the heavy metals would be retained in the plant matter, being insoluble in most causes.

[Kelleytoons]

I have nothing to add to the science/facts that FF has provided (and he should know).

But I will say this is the advantage of being old. Like, REALLY old. I've been eating tuna almost every single day of my adult life and half a century hasn't done anything to me physically (my wife might argue about my brain. But that's a whole other story). At my age I don't worry WHAT I consume, as long as I don't get sick the very next day. Younger folks have more concern, of course, but if I had known when I was younger what I'm told now about tuna I would have missed out on my very favorite food my entire life. And that would be sad.

(Or, to put it another way, you can eat as healthy as you want and get hit by a bus. None of us get out of here alive).

[onespeedstop]

I feel like the (low) price confirms there's no pesticides ha-ha, I'm half joking, but seriously, it would probably cost a bit more. Part of why it's so cheap is that it just grows wild I'm guessing ? And the risk of contaminants is small but ever present. The subject comes up from time to time, and the best advice I've read is to make tea with it, to kill off the weak stuff (if there is any). And/or buy from reputable vendors, and keep an eye/ear out for any recalls, though I only recall maybe 2 of those ever. If the FDA ever gets ahold of it, yeah, it'll be 20% safer - and 300% more expensive. Not a great trade off if you ask me. *shrug*

[BallzDeep9]

I'm kind of freaking out here guys! After realizing this I am on hour 40 of no Kratom whatsoever - despite some slight withdrawal effects. Please please tell me I am not right. Is there solid evidence that this crop is NOT sprayed with cheap unsafe pesticides? Or is it one of those things that we just cannot truly know.

Hello, I'm quoting the bottom of your Post - some very good questions! First, keep that "break" going for maybe 72 hours ? A 3-day break works wonders!

Now, I'm going to separate your concerns into THREE areas: Pesticides, Metals, and, "Microbials" which is (bacteria, yeast, mold, etc.) Let's start with that last one first. Microbials are all part of standard Lab Testing. - Medium size professional vendors, DO test every Batch and they can afford to test every Batch. LINK below to Herbal RVA, a well known, online vendor who posts every Batch, Labs right on their website. Scroll your mouse down below photo on the "Red Bali" page. There's the Lab, from Columbia!

Columbia Labs, is a high quality Lab, separates their Report: Metals, Microbiology, and Mitragynine. . That last one, is what I look for!! This particular Batch, has a very decent numbers for both Mitragynine AND 7-hydroxymitragynine - Yes, it's a potent batch! ... On the microbials, everything is clean. However - I recommend, that every consumer should pour boiled water over their Raw Powder kratom - also known as Red Bubble Tea... you sanitize your powder. You do that right ??

You DON'T sanitize your powder ?? . Whoa, I thought everyone did ... ? LOL just kidding - Most people don't sanitize - All kratom sold in head-shops, all cheap Bulk stuff sold in Caps - is very raw, and probably un-tested. imho there's now TWO main types of kratom - Bulk and "Small Batch", the Bulk stuff used by drug processing labs to make Extract, is questionable. Also imho ( all humble opinions here!) a good Medium size, professional vendor like Herbal RVA - still imports "Small Batch" quality, from well known Indonesians.

One type of bacteria that does not appear on Lab Tests, is Helicobacter Pylori (H. pylori) with can cause a painful infection - Symptoms are a Stomach Ulcer. Yes. Here I'll add, that you can Search Reddit r/kratom to find 6+ Years of consumer reports, on any question you have! We say "Use the Search Bar!" that goes for Reddit, and MM too - but there's 100,000 consumers on Reddit and only a few dozen here? - Check it out. Search r/kratom on the word: Pylori. - again, sanitized powder, takes care of ALL that... 5 minutes @ 180º kills all harmful nasties . I'm sorry the "Community" doesn't get that and doesn't do that. Your choice!

OK. Heavy Metals. You opened a can O' worms, all good questions. Going too long here, but Metals - is a huge subject... Metals are measured in ppb (Parts per Billion), convert that to Milligrams, One ppb is equivalent to 1 milligram of something per liter of water or 1 milligram of something per kilogram of soil. The standard for Lead in bottled water is 5 ppb. Recently I did, take a quickie check of some kratom, using Lab Tests & the AHPA guide for botanicals... I'll summarize by saying, Yes, there IS some concern - Totally based on the Amount of kratom you consume. Make sense ? So consuming 5 grams kratom, per day, would be safe. Under allowable limits... But! Consuming 5X that, 25 gpd, puts you OVER the daily allowed amounts.

Finally. Pesticides ?? . Didn't used to be a concern, Kratom didn't used to be a Crop - It was wild harvested from tall trees growing in the Jungle. But NOW ? It's now a crop and they are in fact, having pest problems... And, a good Indonesian friend has posted, right here on MM, about that! READ - The Pest Raid Continues - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9768&p=97354&hilit= ... ast#p97354

Herbal RVA's Lab Tested, potent Red Bali -- https://herbal-rva.com/product/red-bali/

Columbia Labs, Lab Test for same batch of Red Bali -- https://herbal-rva.com/wp-content/uploa ... 21-pdf.jpg

[froggy33]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9768&view=unread#unread

Theres a link from people on the ground over there in Indo working in the kratom business and answers your question exactly..

"Many stakeholders in kratom business has prehibit farmers to use pesticides because of we affraid its will cause new Problem into importer countries especially United States."

they are looking at natural solutions though..

[fusedflora]

I'm kind of freaking out here guys! After realizing this I am on hour 40 of no Kratom whatsoever - despite some slight withdrawal effects. Please please tell me I am not right. Is there solid evidence that this crop is NOT sprayed with cheap unsafe pesticides? Or is it one of those things that we just cannot truly know.

Hello, I'm quoting the bottom of your Post - some very good questions! First, keep that "break" going for maybe 72 hours ? A 3-day break works wonders!

Now, I'm going to separate your concerns into THREE areas: Pesticides, Metals, and, "Microbials" which is (bacteria, yeast, mold, etc.) Let's start with that last one first. Microbials are all part of standard Lab Testing. - Medium size professional vendors, DO test every Batch and they can afford to test every Batch. LINK below to Herbal RVA, a well known, online vendor who posts every Batch, Labs right on their website. Scroll your mouse down below photo on the "Red Bali" page. There's the Lab, from Columbia!

Columbia Labs, is a high quality Lab, separates their Report: Metals, Microbiology, and Mitragynine. . That last one, is what I look for!! This particular Batch, has a very decent numbers for both Mitragynine AND 7-hydroxymitragynine - Yes, it's a potent batch! ... On the microbials, everything is clean. However - I recommend, that every consumer should pour boiled water over their Raw Powder kratom - also known as Red Bubble Tea... you sanitize your powder. You do that right ??

You DON'T sanitize your powder ?? . Whoa, I thought everyone did ... ? LOL just kidding - Most people don't sanitize - All kratom sold in head-shops, all cheap Bulk stuff sold in Caps - is very raw, and probably un-tested. imho there's now TWO main types of kratom - Bulk and "Small Batch", the Bulk stuff used by drug processing labs to make Extract, is questionable. Also imho ( all humble opinions here!) a good Medium size, professional vendor like Herbal RVA - still imports "Small Batch" quality, from well known Indonesians.

One type of bacteria that does not appear on Lab Tests, is Helicobacter Pylori (H. pylori) with can cause a painful infection - Symptoms are a Stomach Ulcer. Yes. Here I'll add, that you can Search Reddit r/kratom to find 6+ Years of consumer reports, on any question you have! We say "Use the Search Bar!" that goes for Reddit, and MM too - but there's 100,000 consumers on Reddit and only a few dozen here? - Check it out. Search r/kratom on the word: Pylori. - again, sanitized powder, takes care of ALL that... 5 minutes @ 180º kills all harmful nasties . I'm sorry the "Community" doesn't get that and doesn't do that. Your choice!

OK. Heavy Metals. You opened a can O' worms, all good questions. Going too long here, but Metals - is a huge subject... Metals are measured in ppb (Parts per Billion), convert that to Milligrams, One ppb is equivalent to 1 milligram of something per liter of water or 1 milligram of something per kilogram of soil. The standard for Lead in bottled water is 5 ppb. Recently I did, take a quickie check of some kratom, using Lab Tests & the AHPA guide for botanicals... I'll summarize by saying, Yes, there IS some concern - Totally based on the Amount of kratom you consume. Make sense ? So consuming 5 grams kratom, per day, would be safe. Under allowable limits... But! Consuming 5X that, 25 gpd, puts you OVER the daily allowed amounts.

Finally. Pesticides ?? . Didn't used to be a concern, Kratom didn't used to be a Crop - It was wild harvested from tall trees growing in the Jungle. But NOW ? It's now a crop and they are in fact, having pest problems... And, a good Indonesian friend has posted, right here on MM, about that! READ - The Pest Raid Continues - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9768&p=97354&hilit= ... ast#p97354

Herbal RVA's Lab Tested, potent Red Bali -- https://herbal-rva.com/product/red-bali/

Columbia Labs, Lab Test for same batch of Red Bali -- https://herbal-rva.com/wp-content/uploa ... 21-pdf.jpg

We stand corrected. Fhietra is credible source... Again, always exceptions, but I would say this is a current problem... Most what you see on the self will not have experienced this, however in a month may not be the case. We're definitely looking more into it.

[Lokey]

Was going to mention the post Ballz did about the nasty pests ruining the trees. Also there are some companies that market theirs as 100% organic although I don't know how accurate that is or if it's certfiable.

[Sanbutsushin]

Seconding the advice to do the red bubble thing. I haven't consumed raw powder in... jeez, a year now? I would never go back to toss 'n wash. Killing as much bacteria as I can with hot water gives me peace of mind. The red bubble process can seem overwhelming at first, and I think that turns lots of folks off, so if you don't want to go through the whole routine... you can get by just putting your usual serving size in the bottom of a mug, topping with some very, very hot water. Some folks go with a full rolling boil, I just set my kettle to 195F (which is essentially if you boil water on a stovetop and then let it cool for ten minutes, lol).

Once it's cool enough to consume without burning your poor throat, you can throw the resulting sludgy liquid back like a shot (which I personally wouldn't do because the taste... imo is absolutely vile), put the cup in the fridge for when you need it later, mix it into a smoothie or chocolate milk or whatever you feel like doing. That wouldn't be the actual red bubble process (which involves citric acid, freezing the liquid etc etc - search around here if you're interested and there are loads of tutorials!) but at least, with the extra step of pouring hot water over it, you still know that you're killing whatever unwanted bacteria could possibly be hanging out in the powder itself.

Can't speak to the presence of metals or pesticides though, beyond the link that's already been posted above.

[LisaLis]

I appreciate everyone’s input. It seems to me that as much as we can speculate on the subject of bacteria, pesticides, and heavy metals we really don’t truly know the answer. That being said my simple solution is to just lower my 15g a day habit down to about 5g a day. I think that is the best solution since I do not want give it up entirely. I will also try the bubble tea again. I’ve tried it in the past but kinda give up on it because it is so time consuming. But my health is worth it. So here’s to putting in an effort!

[add to descartes]

I appreciate everyone’s input. It seems to me that as much as we can speculate on the subject of bacteria, pesticides, and heavy metals we really don’t truly know the answer. That being said my simple solution is to just lower my 15g a day habit down to about 5g a day. I think that is the best solution since I do not want give it up entirely. I will also try the bubble tea again. I’ve tried it in the past but kinda give up on it because it is so time consuming. But my health is worth it. So here’s to putting in an effort!

a better simple solution would be to make tea out of it.

as has been mentioned above, the near-boiling water would kill any of what you listed. seems like the obvious answer to your query, and more effective than just lowering your dose of raw powder.

[GrannyJ62]

Damn I love this group