Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

Wanted to bring attention to those unaware that a certain vendor was selling "Vintage Workshop" leaf that showed tested for Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl. I think this is absolutely crazy and unheard of, which gives explanation as to why some people recently have been claiming that this could even be a thing with plain leaf due to "ethical and cost concerns"

If you go to the Vendors home page, scroll all the way at the bottom, under header - Website - you see "Vintage Workshop" and the COA's will show Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl in several different test samples at .119% - .140%
Just to clarify, Chat GPT:

Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl (MP) should NOT naturally occur in measurable quantities in plain kratom leaf powder.
What is Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl?

It’s a rare, highly potent, semisynthetic kratom alkaloid.

Not found naturally in any significant quantity in unprocessed kratom leaf.

It's a metabolite — formed inside the human body after ingestion of mitragynine.

It can also be chemically synthesized via acid/heat treatment or during extract production.

So why would it show up in lab results for plain leaf?

If a lab test shows 0.140% MP in plain leaf, there are only a few possible explanations:
1. The Leaf Was Spiked

Most likely:

The vendor may have added extract powder containing pseudoindoxyl to enhance potency.

Or someone in the supply chain mixed in extract “dust” or mitragynine-enriched residue during grinding.

0.140% is way too high to be natural. For comparison:

MP levels in actual kratom extracts (especially oxidized ones) might be ~0.05–0.2%.

In natural leaf, MP is usually undetectable (typically <0.001%, if any).

2. Contaminated Lab Equipment or Sample

Possible (but less likely if the lab is reputable):

Lab ran extract samples with high MP previously and didn’t clean equipment properly.

Cross-contamination between extract and leaf samples.

3. Advanced Fermentation or Improper Drying (Unlikely)

In theory:

If leaf is left wet and fermented improperly, some chemical conversion can take place, possibly converting mitragynine into oxidized byproducts (including MP).

This is still very minimal and would not explain 0.140% MP unless it was intentional.

Why This Matters:

MP is extremely potent (stronger than 7-hydroxymitragynine).

It acts as a mu-opioid agonist with biased signaling, making it attractive for extract spiking.

The presence of MP in “plain leaf” can cause unexpected strength, tolerance spikes, or health risks, especially for those using kratom for energy, not sedation.

Bottom Line:

Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl should NOT be in plain leaf. If it's there, it's likely been added.

A COA showing MP in natural kratom powder is a red flag for spiking, especially if the vendor doesn’t disclose using extracts.

Legit vendors will show zero or non-detectable levels in MP, 7-OH, and other post-extraction metabolites unless they’re selling full-spectrum extracts.

Are you unable to name the vendor? Would sure like to avoid them but I have no idea who to avoid.

I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

If it really was enhanced the 7oh levels would be elevated as well, it also would be extremely expensive to enhance this leaf with Pseudo. I personally have taken multiple times EVERY single batch that was listed and I can absolutely attest to ZERO Pseudo content. I have taken both Pseudo and 7oh on multiple occasions and fully know what both feel like especially in conjunction with Plain leaf. This is 100% lab error IMO. There is NO industry standard for testing of Pseudo. Most of these labs were former cannabis labs that don't have the proper calibrations for Kratom alkaloids. Also..... Pseudo is heavily oxidized and very dark brown in color, there would be tons of tiny dark specs all over this leaf and there are not. It also literally would have cost THOUSANDS of dollars to spike all these batches. Pseudo is almost twice as expensive as 7oh

Adrumaddict wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 12:43 pm Are you unable to name the vendor? Would sure like to avoid them but I have no idea who to avoid.

Let's not be naming names at this time. This is a watch and wait situation.

I also would like to add, I have 4 of these batches from when they were originally released. 2018, 2019, 2022 respectively. I have compared them visually and in effects multiple times and my originals match up to the newer re-released batches in every criteria.

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

That response is just damage control and utter nonsense in my personal opinion.

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:35 pm If it really was enhanced the 7oh levels would be elevated as well, it also would be extremely expensive to enhance this leaf with Pseudo. I personally have taken multiple times EVERY single batch that was listed and I can absolutely attest to ZERO Pseudo content. I have taken both Pseudo and 7oh on multiple occasions and fully know what both feel like especially in conjunction with Plain leaf. This is 100% lab error IMO. There is NO industry standard for testing of Pseudo. Most of these labs were former cannabis labs that don't have the proper calibrations for Kratom alkaloids. Also..... Pseudo is heavily oxidized and very dark brown in color, there would be tons of tiny dark specs all over this leaf and there are not. It also literally would have cost THOUSANDS of dollars to spike all these batches. Pseudo is almost twice as expensive as 7oh

That's just not true, the 7OH levels would not be elevated if it was adulterated, the plain leaf itself didn't go through an extraction process for the natural 7OH levels to be elevated. If plain kratom leaf is adulterated with synthetic mitragynine pseudoindoxyl (MP), it should NOT cause an elevation in natural 7-hydroxymitragynine (7-OH) levels.

They are distinct compounds, formed through separate pathways, and adding one doesn’t boost the other. You can nowadays buy fully synthetic Psudo that has no natural 7OH in it. I've personally seen the labs too. Also at .119 % that's extremely small amount, but is strong in effects even in small amounts. Natural 7OH is .009 and under < --- .119 synthetic 7OH is strong... you wouldn't know visually because it's such a small amount per gram, and it's actually pretty cheap to synthetically make.

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:13 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

That response is just damage control and utter nonsense in my personal opinion.

These were and still are Legendary batches that the community has been quite fond of over the years. PMD14, PRMD14, PRMD16, PRT3, Gold MD2, Bali R1, Bali G1. There is zero reason to adulterate these batches, the original Importer held over about 40 kilos of each batch in his vault.....this Vendor that you have repeatedly tried to slander and cast shame upon convinced him to sell his remaining stock. So your saying that you conclude that they were intentionally adulterated with the most expensive lab made additive(Pseudo)? Then he goes ahead and sells at market value..? You are a total clown.This is gas-lighting at its finest. These batches literally sold themselves, no labs or adulteration would ever be required. What is the gain here? Both the Importer and the Vendor are staunchly against 7oh and Pseudo.

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

1. The “lab misidentification” excuse doesn’t hold up.
That's silly for a lab to confuse mitragynine pseudo with something else like mitragynine N-oxide. The truth is, M-Psuedo has a very distinct fingerprint when tested by mass spectrometry. Any decent lab using proper equipment like HPLC-MS/MS or UPLC-QTOF and with real kratom reference standards isn’t going to confuse MP with other alkaloids. If a lab can’t tell the difference, they really shouldn’t be testing kratom at all.

2. Saying the sample “degraded” into M-Psuedo is just misleading.
Suggesting that mitragynine might have transformed into MP because of heat, light, acid, or oxygen during storage or testing is not accurate. Scientifically, that’s just not realistic. M-Psuedo doesn’t form under typical drying, grinding, or storage conditions. It requires a complex chemical process that includes acidic solvents and specific lab conditions. It’s not something that just randomly happens in kratom leaf or even during basic lab prep. That explanation doesn’t make sense chemically.

3. Cross-contamination in the lab? Maybe, but very unlikely at this level %
It’s possible, in theory, that the equipment could have had leftover M-Psuedo from a previous sample, but the amount found 0.140% is way too high for that. That’s 1.4 mg per gram. If this were just contamination, you’d expect maybe a few nanograms, not over 1000 parts per million. Labs usually run controls and clean their machines between samples. This much psuedo is almost certainly not a fluke.

4. The “autofill” or sloppy lab report idea sounds like a deflection.
The claim the lab might have just included M-Psuedo in the report by default or assumed it was there. But any legit lab won’t report MP unless they’ve actually tested for it and confirmed it using proper standards and methods, like retention times, ion fragmentation, and comparison to known reference material. If someone really thinks the lab made it up, they should show the raw data not just say “they probably guessed.”

5. Mistaking MP for 7-OH or other metabolites is also unlikely.
Compounds like 7-hydroxy or 9-hydroxy mitragynine aren’t the same as pseudoindoxyl, and modern mass spectrometry can easily tell them apart. They have different structures, different molecular weights, and break apart differently during testing. A skilled analyst isn’t going to confuse them. If that kind of mistake happens, it means the lab either isn’t trained properly or someone’s not being honest.

The vendor’s response sounds like a bunch of excuses to avoid taking responsibility. When something questionable shows up in a COA like Psuedo at 0.140%, the proper response is to take it seriously. That level of pseudoindoxyl doesn’t happen in nature. It almost always points to adulteration. Either the vendor is spiking their product or they’re getting it from someone who is and maybe they don’t even realize it, or they’re not being transparent. Either way, it’s a red flag!

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:20 pm

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:13 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

That response is just damage control and utter nonsense in my personal opinion.

These were and still are Legendary batches that the community has been quite fond of over the years. PMD14, PRMD14, PRMD16, PRT3, Gold MD2, Bali R1, Bali G1. There is zero reason to adulterate these batches, the original Importer held over about 40 kilos of each batch in his vault.....this Vendor that you have repeatedly tried to slander and cast shame upon convinced him to sell his remaining stock. So your saying that you conclude that they were intentionally adulterated with the most expensive lab made additive(Pseudo)? Then he goes ahead and sells at market value..? You are a total clown.This is gas-lighting at its finest. These batches literally sold themselves, no labs or adulteration would ever be required. What is the gain here? Both the Importer and the Vendor are staunchly against 7oh and Pseudo.

1. I haven't named the vendor.
2. I haven't slandered anything, I only am providing facts on evidence of CLEAR lab reports involving mit psuedo and educating those that have NO IDEA about this new powerful SYNTHETIC drug.
3. Let's have an honest conversation about it because this stuff may be the detriment to Kratoms legality.

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. Also.. what sense would it make to spike a batch, and then post the lab results for everyone to see it? This dude is a clown, and is lashing out because he’s been blackballed from the company.. why was he blackballed do you ask? For being an absolute jerk. Disrespectful, and flat out rude. It taken a lot for this vendor to blacklist anyone… so there is a reason. The last time this jerk posted in here, he was speaking so kindly about DTE, and wanting to know if anyone could contact them and try to help him get an order placed… once he got a hole of Drew, and he was reminded why he’s been blacklisted… this was his response? It’s a joke. And only further proves what kind of a person he truly is. This whole thing is so stupid man. Get a life. And if you don’t want to be blackballed, don’t be a dick. It’s that simple.

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:44 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. Also.. what sense would it make to spike a batch, and then post the lab results for everyone to see it? This dude is a clown, and is lashing out because he’s been blackballed from the company.. why was he blackballed do you ask? For being an absolute jerk. Disrespectful, and flat out rude. It taken a lot for this vendor to blacklist anyone… so there is a reason. The last time this jerk posted in here, he was speaking so kindly about DTE, and wanting to know if anyone could contact them and try to help him get an order placed… once he got a hole of Drew, and he was reminded why he’s been blacklisted… this was his response? It’s a joke. And only further proves what kind of a person he truly is. This whole thing is so stupid man. Get a life. And if you don’t want to be blackballed, don’t be a dick. It’s that simple.

You are mistaken and you have no reason to be mad at me and calling me names. I know I was blacklisted, that's why I made the post so I would get my money back from not receiving what I had paid for. Imagine blacklisting someone but still letting them order to take their money and not being able to communicate with said vendor? I've always spoke kindly about said vendor, I have no reason not to, aside from the situation that happened with an order I received and voiced my concerns to said vendor and I've been professional about it. I DID NOT make the post hoping to get someone to help get my order placed and sent, if you read my post word for word, all I wanted was my money back, why would I want to continue to do business with a vendor who put me on a blacklist, I'm not a feen, I have a responsible daily regimen and I don't need anything... I never got ahold of the owner, he never reached out to me, you are literally making up stories. one day after I made that post about what was going on, he just refunded my order, that was that. I haven't tried to contact him since. Calling me a clown is out of place bro and you are wrong for actually now naming the vendor and the owners name. I never once shared the full details of what happened or what was said, so whatever you are expanding on is either assumptions or a one sided story trying to save face.

There’s not a chance in hell that this is spiked with pseudo. The owner is a super smart dude and there’s just not a chance he would do this to begin with. It’s a lab mistake end of story.

KratomicBurn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:52 pm There’s not a chance in hell that this is spiked with pseudo. The owner is a super smart dude and there’s just not a chance he would do this to begin with. It’s a lab mistake end of story.

So that it's clear to everyone, I'm concerned about kratoms future because of synthetic 7OH and I'm only reporting on what the actual labs say. I've read that others have had an experience where this was the case, adulteration, not this vendor I'm talking about though. I'm not saying that anyone's personal experience with this batch is a lie, you have your right to share your experience and thoughts. ALL I did was share what was reported BY THE LAB, then rebuttal on what was explained as to why it would show up on the labs. It's ALL FACTS. Nobody should get butt hurt about facts when discussing the nature of 7OH and synthetic psuedo and what CLAIMS are made. I also expanding on that a vendor nowadys could receive a shipment ALREADY adulterated and they wouldn't even know until testing. I also went over the fact that the response as to why it showed up in the labs, could be completely the LABS fault and they shouldn't be testing to begin with for "accidentally" showing Mitra Psuedo on the lab to begin with.

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:50 pm

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:44 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:30 pm I saw this also and already looked into it as well as contacted the vendor who happens to be a good friend of mine. these were the reasons noted to him by the lab that he used :

**Lab Misidentification**

The lab might have misidentified a structurally similar alkaloid (like speciociliatine N-oxide or mitragynine N-oxide) due to poor separation or inaccurate mass spec databases.

If the lab is not kratom-specialized, they could confuse mitragynine pseudoindoxyl with other minor oxidized alkaloids.

**Sample Degradation or Transformation**

Under certain storage or testing conditions, mitragynine can rearrange into pseudoindoxyls.

This can happen with acidic solvents, light, heat, or oxidizing conditions during extraction and testing prep.

**Lab Cross-Contamination**

If the lab also handles 7-OH or pseudoindoxyl-enhanced products, there's a risk of residual contamination in the equipment.

**Bad or Misleading Lab Practices**

Some labs may include mitragynine pseudoindoxyl in their results template automatically, based on internal standard references or guesswork.

Misinterpretation of Derivatives

Certain oxidized derivatives of mitragynine (like 9-hydroxy or 7-hydroxy metabolites) may be misclassified if MS/MS libraries aren’t updated or precise.

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. Also.. what sense would it make to spike a batch, and then post the lab results for everyone to see it? This dude is a clown, and is lashing out because he’s been blackballed from the company.. why was he blackballed do you ask? For being an absolute jerk. Disrespectful, and flat out rude. It taken a lot for this vendor to blacklist anyone… so there is a reason. The last time this jerk posted in here, he was speaking so kindly about DTE, and wanting to know if anyone could contact them and try to help him get an order placed… once he got a hole of Drew, and he was reminded why he’s been blacklisted… this was his response? It’s a joke. And only further proves what kind of a person he truly is. This whole thing is so stupid man. Get a life. And if you don’t want to be blackballed, don’t be a dick. It’s that simple.

You are mistaken and you have no reason to be mad at me and calling me names. I know I was blacklisted, that's why I made the post so I would get my money back from not receiving what I had paid for. Imagine blacklisting someone but still letting them order to take their money and not being able to communicate with said vendor? I've always spoke kindly about said vendor, I have no reason not to, aside from the situation that happened with an order I received and voiced my concerns to said vendor and I've been professional about it. I DID NOT make the post hoping to get someone to help get my order placed and sent, if you read my post word for word, all I wanted was my money back, why would I want to continue to do business with a vendor who put me on a blacklist, I'm not a feen, I have a responsible daily regimen and I don't need anything... I never got ahold of the owner, one day he just refunded me order, that was that. I haven't tried to contact him since. Calling me a clown is out of place bro and you are wrong for actually now naming the vendor and the owners name. I never once shared the full details of what happened or what was said, so whatever you are expanding on is either assumptions or a one sided story trying to save face.

I know this first hand.. I know what went down between you and the vendor. The only one trying to “save face” is you. Were you not here a week or two ago speaking highly of the vendor, and asking for help trying to get an order placed, because you had sent payment via a payment app, and were unable to reach the vendor yourself. The reason being is because they have you blocked.. from emails, and blacklisted from placing orders. That money was refunded to you as soon as the vendor got word that you had attempted to place an order. There is a reason you’ve been blocked, and blacklisted by one of THE nicest dudes in this industry. It’s because of this kind of behavior, and rather than just suck it up, and come to terms with the consequences of your own actions, you’ve decided to come to Double M, and create this mess. It’s ridiculous, and shame on you for stooping this low. I meant what I said.. if you don’t want to be blocked and blacklisted, don’t be a jerk to people. Plain and simple. Everyone who matters, knows what a crock this is. The lab has already been contacted, and what bookofenoch shared, was from the lab themselves. It’s a false positive, or they didn’t clean their instruments well enough before running labs on this leaf. These are batched from 2018-2021… vintage leaf… leaf that PLENTY of people have been burning for YEARS. There’s nothing wrong with it, and it hasn’t been spiked. Be like Elsa, and let it go dude.

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 7:28 pm

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:50 pm

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:44 pm

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. Also.. what sense would it make to spike a batch, and then post the lab results for everyone to see it? This dude is a clown, and is lashing out because he’s been blackballed from the company.. why was he blackballed do you ask? For being an absolute jerk. Disrespectful, and flat out rude. It taken a lot for this vendor to blacklist anyone… so there is a reason. The last time this jerk posted in here, he was speaking so kindly about DTE, and wanting to know if anyone could contact them and try to help him get an order placed… once he got a hole of Drew, and he was reminded why he’s been blacklisted… this was his response? It’s a joke. And only further proves what kind of a person he truly is. This whole thing is so stupid man. Get a life. And if you don’t want to be blackballed, don’t be a dick. It’s that simple.

You are mistaken and you have no reason to be mad at me and calling me names. I know I was blacklisted, that's why I made the post so I would get my money back from not receiving what I had paid for. Imagine blacklisting someone but still letting them order to take their money and not being able to communicate with said vendor? I've always spoke kindly about said vendor, I have no reason not to, aside from the situation that happened with an order I received and voiced my concerns to said vendor and I've been professional about it. I DID NOT make the post hoping to get someone to help get my order placed and sent, if you read my post word for word, all I wanted was my money back, why would I want to continue to do business with a vendor who put me on a blacklist, I'm not a feen, I have a responsible daily regimen and I don't need anything... I never got ahold of the owner, one day he just refunded me order, that was that. I haven't tried to contact him since. Calling me a clown is out of place bro and you are wrong for actually now naming the vendor and the owners name. I never once shared the full details of what happened or what was said, so whatever you are expanding on is either assumptions or a one sided story trying to save face.

I know this first hand.. I know what went down between you and the vendor. The only one trying to “save face” is you. Were you not here a week or two ago speaking highly of the vendor, and asking for help trying to get an order placed, because you had sent payment via a payment app, and were unable to reach the vendor yourself. The reason being is because they have you blocked.. from emails, and blacklisted from placing orders. That money was refunded to you as soon as the vendor got word that you had attempted to place an order. There is a reason you’ve been blocked, and blacklisted by one of THE nicest dudes in this industry. It’s because of this kind of behavior, and rather than just suck it up, and come to terms with the consequences of your own actions, you’ve decided to come to Double M, and create this mess. It’s ridiculous, and shame on you for stooping this low. I meant what I said.. if you don’t want to be blocked and blacklisted, don’t be a jerk to people. Plain and simple. Everyone who matters, knows what a crock this is. The lab has already been contacted, and what bookofenoch shared, was from the lab themselves. It’s a false positive, or they didn’t clean their instruments well enough before running labs on this leaf. These are batched from 2018-2021… vintage leaf… leaf that PLENTY of people have been burning for YEARS. There’s nothing wrong with it, and it hasn’t been spiked. Be like Elsa, and let it go dude.

how about you first, start with actually reading what I had posted, instead of trying to recall what was said and fabricate things. Holy moly.


What was said:
"Hello guys. I'm hoping this post finds "John Doe" and a resolution happens.

I have nothing but good things to say about --------'s quality and customer service, everyone on here would say the same, so this isn't meant to call anyone out, but I have had no response from anyone from the company but I know this is a rare case. Please don't let this situation prevent you from doing business with "John Doe", they are an amazing small batch vendor.

A few months ago I had voiced my concerns about a batch that I received. I've been ordering from John Doe over the past 4 or so years, never once had an issue with any order, accept this one I'm mentioning. I won't go into details as what was said, but it resulted in my order being refunded (when I hadn't even voiced that I wanted a refund) and my email address being blocked from the website from future orders (without being aware of this).

Fast forward like 2 months, I went to place an order over a week ago and I had sent money right before I placed the order. Then and only then, I found out my order didn't go through and the system told me right then and there that my email was blocked from ordering. I was surprised, really. With multiple attempts to either reconcile what happened or to refund me, to no avail. It was only around 50$, not that big of a deal, but it's the principal.

If anyone is a close friend of "John Doe" or can easily reach out to him, please do so. There is a high probability that my emails weren't even received and he has no idea. Thanks guys!"



I'm well aware of why I couldn't get through to the vendor, I'm not an idiot. I literally said up front that my order was blocked. Can you read?

If the vendor didn't have my emails also blocked from being received, he would of saw that I said that I just want refunded, and that I didn't want to do business moving forward considering how that was handled. I handled it with as much professionalism as possible. I'm not one bit bothered nor have I complained to anyone for not being able to do business with them anymore, you don't get it. End of story.

If I shared the TWO emails I sent to said vendor, which I won't, you'd put your foot strait in your mouth, and you would be the one that looks like a fool. I have nothing to hide, my communication was not out of line at all, and It didn't deserve a "blacklist" lol. I have let it go, because again It's not in my best interest to do business with someone like that considering how my concern was handled. It was completely out of line and he acted like a giant baby. I initially sent him a small paragraph, to which he responded very defensively, 6-7 paragraphs with a bunch of assumption completely taking what I said out of context, exactly like you have done here. I was 100% nice and cordial, I wasn't a jerk at all, I don't appreciate one bit how you've gaslit me and think you know what happened.

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 7:28 pm

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:50 pm

J_Leigh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:44 pm

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. Also.. what sense would it make to spike a batch, and then post the lab results for everyone to see it? This dude is a clown, and is lashing out because he’s been blackballed from the company.. why was he blackballed do you ask? For being an absolute jerk. Disrespectful, and flat out rude. It taken a lot for this vendor to blacklist anyone… so there is a reason. The last time this jerk posted in here, he was speaking so kindly about DTE, and wanting to know if anyone could contact them and try to help him get an order placed… once he got a hole of Drew, and he was reminded why he’s been blacklisted… this was his response? It’s a joke. And only further proves what kind of a person he truly is. This whole thing is so stupid man. Get a life. And if you don’t want to be blackballed, don’t be a dick. It’s that simple.

You are mistaken and you have no reason to be mad at me and calling me names. I know I was blacklisted, that's why I made the post so I would get my money back from not receiving what I had paid for. Imagine blacklisting someone but still letting them order to take their money and not being able to communicate with said vendor? I've always spoke kindly about said vendor, I have no reason not to, aside from the situation that happened with an order I received and voiced my concerns to said vendor and I've been professional about it. I DID NOT make the post hoping to get someone to help get my order placed and sent, if you read my post word for word, all I wanted was my money back, why would I want to continue to do business with a vendor who put me on a blacklist, I'm not a feen, I have a responsible daily regimen and I don't need anything... I never got ahold of the owner, one day he just refunded me order, that was that. I haven't tried to contact him since. Calling me a clown is out of place bro and you are wrong for actually now naming the vendor and the owners name. I never once shared the full details of what happened or what was said, so whatever you are expanding on is either assumptions or a one sided story trying to save face.

I know this first hand.. I know what went down between you and the vendor. The only one trying to “save face” is you. Were you not here a week or two ago speaking highly of the vendor, and asking for help trying to get an order placed, because you had sent payment via a payment app, and were unable to reach the vendor yourself. The reason being is because they have you blocked.. from emails, and blacklisted from placing orders. That money was refunded to you as soon as the vendor got word that you had attempted to place an order. There is a reason you’ve been blocked, and blacklisted by one of THE nicest dudes in this industry. It’s because of this kind of behavior, and rather than just suck it up, and come to terms with the consequences of your own actions, you’ve decided to come to Double M, and create this mess. It’s ridiculous, and shame on you for stooping this low. I meant what I said.. if you don’t want to be blocked and blacklisted, don’t be a jerk to people. Plain and simple. Everyone who matters, knows what a crock this is. The lab has already been contacted, and what bookofenoch shared, was from the lab themselves. It’s a false positive, or they didn’t clean their instruments well enough before running labs on this leaf. These are batched from 2018-2021… vintage leaf… leaf that PLENTY of people have been burning for YEARS. There’s nothing wrong with it, and it hasn’t been spiked. Be like Elsa, and let it go dude.

I don't care what vendor it is, any consumer should have the right to voice concerns over mitra psuedo showing up in their labs, especially when IT WAS NOT ADDRESSED or PUBLICLY acknowledged up front that this was a lab mistake. What SMART, vendor, would just not make a statement about such a fuk up... ?? Sincere question? Why not say anything publicly before hand as to warn consumers that it wasn't the case, why not have discovery on this and expect people to overlook or not care? Nowhere in the email marketing for this batch or on website did it say anything about how the lab messed up and "accidentally" showed mitra psuedo. It was certainly voiced that the batch was premium and they paid an EXTRA 10$ per kilo... If I was the smart vendor I would of, right away, acknowledged the fact that this lab company should not be testing, it's a major eff up if that's the case, and NONE of this would of even been questioned. Agree?

I bought some. It can’t be spiked. Because it totally sucks and does nothing. Just crappy low grade kratom that cost way too much. None of it hit for me. Should have just took my business to STH and got some fire for way cheaper.

RemovedJust was very very disappointed with the vintage leaf.

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:39 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:20 pm These were and still are Legendary batches that the community has been quite fond of over the years. PMD14, PRMD14, PRMD16, PRT3, Gold MD2, Bali R1, Bali G1. There is zero reason to adulterate these batches, the original Importer held over about 40 kilos of each batch in his vault.....this Vendor that you have repeatedly tried to slander, and cast shame upon convinced him to sell his remaining stock. So your saying that you conclude that they were intentionally adulterated with the most expensive lab made additive(Pseudo)? Then he goes ahead and sells at market value..? You are a total clown.This is gas-lighting at its finest. These batches literally sold themselves, no labs or adulteration would ever be required. What is the gain here? Both the Importer and the Vendor are staunchly against 7oh and Pseudo.

1. I haven't named the vendor.
2. I haven't slandered anything, I only am providing facts on evidence of CLEAR lab reports involving mit psuedo and educating those that have NO IDEA about this new powerful SYNTHETIC drug.
3. Let's have an honest conversation about it because this stuff may be the detriment to Kratoms legality.

LOL!! Hey just a few days ago... You accused ME of "Slandering honest vendors based on conspiracy logic" - remember ? well... Who's "Slingin' the Slander" now ??

Really now. I agree with KratomicBurn, Zero chance that a vendor would "spike" Plain Leaf with Pseudo... come on. ~ I mean, interesting Lab Report, Yes, I won't dig around to find the COA in question, but it's pretty well understood that... Lab testing for MIT Pseudoindoxyl - is still rather sketchy - Many or probably "most" Labs could NOT - properly identify or quantify Pseudo... until recently, there WAS no Reference available, and it's been, a very specialized Kratom test.

Only a few Labs, EVEN handle Pseudo testing... (Many Labs out there don't even do much Kratom, period!) - Just like there are specialty Cannabis Testing Labs, and there's enough demand and $ for that... Kratom is such a minor industry. And within the "Kratom Labs" there ARE differences, better and worse... and questionable Reports. (Why does Murray Brown, include Paynanthine along WITH Mitragynine percentage, on potency Test reports, with a footnote explaining... while other Labs don't do this ??) ~ So, it's interesting to note, WHAT Lab is screwing this up ??

Even MORE fascinating. Why would a known Good Vendor - Put someone on their "Shit-List" ? What does that say... about the Customer - who GOT themselves banished or black-balled. Hmm ??

All labs have been re-run and proven to have zero psuedo.

"After running the retest on another instrument at a lower dilution level, it appears that the mitragynine pseudoindoxyl peak that was originally reported is most likely a false positive caused by matrix interference. One of the limitations with the LCDAD alkaloid tests is that we are only relying on a retention time match with our standards. So although the peak was correctly reported based on the criteria outlined in our SOP, large matrix peaks such as the ones found in these samples can sometimes produce false positives. "

This is directly from the lab. Anyone is welcome to call them and verify this information. The re-tests were done with the original samples.

The new and updated reports are listed on the website. Anyone other than OP who has questions or concerns can reach out to me directly and I'll happily address them!

Take care Double M!

KratomSavesLives24/7 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 8:53 pm I bought some. It can’t be spiked. Because it totally sucks and does nothing. Just crappy low grade kratom that cost way too much. None of it hit for me. Should have just took my business to STH and got some fire for way cheaper.

Not bashing DTE “should’ve taken my business to STH..” dude, are you new to leaf? Not every strain works for every person. There are positive reviews and posts everywhere about this vintage leaf. The reason DTE went out of their way to acquire these strains, was because of their legendary status. These are strains that people have been after for years… and if it “totally sucked and did nothing” that wouldn’t be the case. Either way… even if they just didn’t work for your personal chemistry, doesn’t mean they suck. I thought every long time user knew this. Maybe they didn’t hit for you, but there’s a whole slew of people who are going bananas for them.

Bs23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:39 pm Removed

No offers of transactions if you're not an approved member of the Trading Post

dtebotanicals wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:13 pm All labs have been re-run and proven to have zero psuedo.

"After running the retest on another instrument at a lower dilution level, it appears that the mitragynine pseudoindoxyl peak that was originally reported is most likely a false positive caused by matrix interference. One of the limitations with the LCDAD alkaloid tests is that we are only relying on a retention time match with our standards. So although the peak was correctly reported based on the criteria outlined in our SOP, large matrix peaks such as the ones found in these samples can sometimes produce false positives. "

This is directly from the lab. Anyone is welcome to call them and verify this information. The re-tests were done with the original samples.

The new and updated reports are listed on the website. Anyone other than OP who has questions or concerns can reach out to me directly and I'll happily address them!

Take care Double M!

So your essentially saying that we exist inside some sort of digital matrix and the code of the matrix made an error where it somehow thought pseudo was inside plain leaf powder? Does this mean the people who believe they bought powder with pseudo will have the effects of pseudo while the people who don't believe pseudo is inside will not feel its effects? Also are you confirming that this world we live in is a matrix?

KratomSavesLives24/7 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 8:53 pm I bought some. It can’t be spiked. Because it totally sucks and does nothing. Just crappy low grade kratom that cost way too much. None of it hit for me. Should have just took my business to STH and got some fire for way cheaper.

Moderator please delete this. I can’t figure out how to delete it.

BallzDeep9 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:38 pm

WickedMadScientist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:39 pm

BookofEnoch1914 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:20 pm These were and still are Legendary batches that the community has been quite fond of over the years. PMD14, PRMD14, PRMD16, PRT3, Gold MD2, Bali R1, Bali G1. There is zero reason to adulterate these batches, the original Importer held over about 40 kilos of each batch in his vault.....this Vendor that you have repeatedly tried to slander, and cast shame upon convinced him to sell his remaining stock. So your saying that you conclude that they were intentionally adulterated with the most expensive lab made additive(Pseudo)? Then he goes ahead and sells at market value..? You are a total clown.This is gas-lighting at its finest. These batches literally sold themselves, no labs or adulteration would ever be required. What is the gain here? Both the Importer and the Vendor are staunchly against 7oh and Pseudo.

1. I haven't named the vendor.
2. I haven't slandered anything, I only am providing facts on evidence of CLEAR lab reports involving mit psuedo and educating those that have NO IDEA about this new powerful SYNTHETIC drug.
3. Let's have an honest conversation about it because this stuff may be the detriment to Kratoms legality.

LOL!! Hey just a few days ago... You accused ME of "Slandering honest vendors based on conspiracy logic" - remember ? well... Who's "Slingin' the Slander" now ??

Really now. I agree with KratomicBurn, Zero chance that a vendor would "spike" Plain Leaf with Pseudo... come on. ~ I mean, interesting Lab Report, Yes, I won't dig around to find the COA in question, but it's pretty well understood that... Lab testing for MIT Pseudoindoxyl - is still rather sketchy - Many or probably "most" Labs could NOT - properly identify or quantify Pseudo... until recently, there WAS no Reference available, and it's been, a very specialized Kratom test.

Only a few Labs, EVEN handle Pseudo testing... (Many Labs out there don't even do much Kratom, period!) - Just like there are specialty Cannabis Testing Labs, and there's enough demand and $ for that... Kratom is such a minor industry. And within the "Kratom Labs" there ARE differences, better and worse... and questionable Reports. (Why does Murray Brown, include Paynanthine along WITH Mitragynine percentage, on potency Test reports, with a footnote explaining... while other Labs don't do this ??) ~ So, it's interesting to note, WHAT Lab is screwing this up ??

Even MORE fascinating. Why would a known Good Vendor - Put someone on their "Shit-List" ? What does that say... about the Customer - who GOT themselves banished or black-balled. Hmm ??

You came at vendor with zero proof of anything. I came to you guys with all the proof that psuedo showed up on the labs, and provided scientific and technical information about HOW all that could happen, taking a neutral stance given the three scenarios as to why this could even happen, if you know how to read.

They put me on a shit list because I voiced my opinion on a batch I received, looks like others in here had the same experience. I got blocked for it. I have zero qualms with not doing business with a vendor if they get butt hurt over a bad batch and want to ignore me, their loss. I'm willing to share any information on my side through private messages, but you'd rather stick with assumptions.

dtebotanicals wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:13 pm All labs have been re-run and proven to have zero psuedo.

"After running the retest on another instrument at a lower dilution level, it appears that the mitragynine pseudoindoxyl peak that was originally reported is most likely a false positive caused by matrix interference. One of the limitations with the LCDAD alkaloid tests is that we are only relying on a retention time match with our standards. So although the peak was correctly reported based on the criteria outlined in our SOP, large matrix peaks such as the ones found in these samples can sometimes produce false positives. "

This is directly from the lab. Anyone is welcome to call them and verify this information. The re-tests were done with the original samples.

The new and updated reports are listed on the website. Anyone other than OP who has questions or concerns can reach out to me directly and I'll happily address them!

Take care Double M!

Would you explain how you have the exact same Order No, Sample No, Received Date, and Analysis Date on said COA's that have been re-uploaded? The only difference now is ND (not detected) for Mitraginine pseudoindoxyl.

The COA details don't add up ?

If the claim is the same samples were re-tested, but the COA has identical metadata, then it's not a retest COA, it's a modified or overwritten version of the original COA. That's not standard practice.

Any legitimate retest should show a new analysis date, new test ID or reference, a note in the report indicating that this was a retest on the same retained sample

So if everything is the same except the value for pseudoindoxyl, this suggests either that the lab edited the original document, which is a major breach of standard practices and regulatory integrity, or the vendor edited it themselves, which would be, well, fill in the blanks.

The “matrix interference” reasoning doesn’t hold up if they reported up to 0.140% Pseudo. That’s a massive peak, not a trace artifact.
If using LCDAD, confirmation with LC-MS/MS or UPLC-QTOF should be used to rule out false positives.
Pseudo should not show up at all unless it’s present, it's not an alkaloid that gets confused easily at that concentration.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Honestly i dont think the leaf is spiked.

I have some myself. Some of it was very solid and some didn’t hit for me. I don’t even burn that much, spiked leaf would have kicked my ass.

That said I don’t think it’s fair for everyone to go after WickedMadScientist…. I think he could’ve gone about this differently but in his defense he was simply sharing more broadly information he found in labs. Labs that were posted by the vendor. Facts that the vendor put out for the public to see, he was just the first to notice. And he never once named the vendor.

I know a lot of us love this vendor and came rushing to their defense but let’s keep in mind nothing this guy did was super inappropriate and was certaintky based on fact, and while I can’t speak to his intent, i don’t think he deserves all the backlash he’s getting here.

And tbh, as much as i love this vendor, they themselves should have noticed that the labs contained an error / had detectable psuedo content if we’re being honest. It seems like they didn’t even notice, which is kinda worrisome in the grand scheme of things. That said. I trust this vendor and will continue to give them business.

T0wlie04 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:22 pm Honestly i dont think the leaf is spiked.

I have some myself. Some of it was very solid and some didn’t hit for me. I don’t even burn that much, spiked leaf would have kicked my ass.

That said I don’t think it’s fair for everyone to go after WickedMadScientist…. I think he could’ve gone about this differently but in his defense he was simply sharing more broadly information he found in labs. Labs that were posted by the vendor. Facts that the vendor put out for the public to see, he was just the first to notice. And he never once named the vendor.

I know a lot of us love this vendor and came rushing to their defense but let’s keep in mind nothing this guy did was super inappropriate and was certaintky based on fact, and while I can’t speak to his intent, i don’t think he deserves all the backlash he’s getting here.

And tbh, as much as i love this vendor, they themselves should have noticed that the labs contained an error / had detectable psuedo content if we’re being honest. It seems like they didn’t even notice, which is kinda worrisome in the grand scheme of things. That said. I trust this vendor and will continue to give them business.

That's up to any member here to decide whether or not they trust someone who blocks a member that has been ordering from them for over two years, with no issues, from communication over voicing concerns regarding the quality of batch received, while also afterwards finding out Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl showed up on last batch, that was not addressed up front.

I'll be done conversing about this now, I'd leave you with this:

Why wasn’t that matrix interference or mis-ID ruled out in the first place before reporting it on the original COA? Especially with something as rare and potent as pseudo showing up in plain leaf, you’d think confirmatory steps would be automatic before dropping that kind of number. The conclusion is the lab just "re-ran" the same sample. And the labs used were cheaper and faster than LCMS/MS and was probably too expensive and time-consuming for the vendor, leaving the results prone to untrustworthy false positives, clearly with inadequate quality control and oversight with a lack of standard operating procedure for ambiguous peaks. A good lab should have an SOP for how to handle co-eluting or ambiguous peaks, rare alkaloids, and compounds with major regulatory implications. All it did was make this whole situation look bad up front.

I highly doubt a respected vendor would be trying to pull something like this.