New Clinical Research

[pray4peace4]

If any of you have access to Medscape, a doctor/medical professional application, it now contains a Medline section where you can do a search of medical journals for search terms. I did it for kratom & it quickly returned a wealth of articles, most notably one that compared blood chemistry values in chronic users to those of the general population:



Evaluating the hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters of kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) users in Malaysia

Author links open overlay panelDarshanSinghaSharif MahsufiMansora

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https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jep.2017.12.017Get rights and content

Abstract

Ethnopharmacological relevance

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa Korth.) from the Rubiaceae family is an indigenous tropical medicinal tree of Southeast Asia. Kratom leaves have been used for decades in Malaysia and Thailand in traditional context for its perceived vast medicinal value, and as a mild stimulantamong manual labourers. Kratom consumption has been reported to cause side-effects in kratom users.

Aim of the study

To evaluate kratom's effects towards hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters among regular kratom users in Malaysia.

Methods

A total of 77 subjects (n=58 regular kratom users, and n=19 healthy controls) participated in this cross-sectional study. All the surveys were conducted through face-to-face interview to elicit subject's socio-demographic characteristics and kratom use history. A full-blood test was also administered. Laboratory analysis was conducted using GC-MS to determine mitragynine content in the acquired kratom samples in order to relate mitragynine consumption with possible alterations in the blood parameters of kratom users.

Results

Findings showed that there were no significant differences in the hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters of traditional kratom users and healthy controls, except for HDL and LDL cholesterol values; these were found to be above the normal reference range for the former. Similarly, long-term kratom consumption (>5 years), and quantity of daily kratom use (≥3 ½ glasses; mitragynine content 76.3–114.8 mg) did not appear to alter the hematological and biochemical parameters of kratom users.

Conclusion

These data suggest that even long-term and heavy kratom consumption did not significantly alter the hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters of kratom users in a traditional setting.

[herbalhippie]

Interesting. My cholesterol levels had always been within normal parameters until about 14 or 15 months ago when my bad cholesterol and triglycerides came up elevated. By that time, I had been using kratom for maybe a year, year and a half.

[pray4peace4]

The thing that interested me the most is here is proof that kratom is benign but the FDA keeps saying how dangerous it is. Plus users are frequently concerned about any potential long term negative effects, & at least from a blood chemistry perspective, there are no discernible long term bad effects.

[trigger]

File not found. Is there another link?

[BallzDeep9]

at least from a blood chemistry perspective, there are no discernible long term bad effects.

yeah that's pretty much the basis of my debate on Reddit last year, regarding not only general health concerns, but also the likelihood of negative effects due to contamination... We DO have a significant population, at this point, of Daily Users 5+ years.

Anecdotal, yes, but the FACT that complaints are rare or non-existent.. says something about the overall safety profile of kratom! Start with public guys like Carpo719 on YouTube.. there's quite a bunch of people who are 5 years, 7 years, users with almost zero common reports of negative health aside from issues regarding mild temporary addiction and withdrawal. Of course

[trigger]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

There seems to be a ceiling on the effects, so you can’t OD. It’s cheaper than any other “high” if that’s what you’re using it for, so it isn’t gonna ruin anyone financially... and it doesn’t seem to make you cloudy or crazy or mentally inhibited or impaired, so I don’t see the issue even if it is highly addictive.

This stuff allowed me to kick half a dozen prescription meds. I’m happy to take this every day for the rest of my life. I’m also addicted to eating food and drinking water and breathing air. So what? If I ate a salad every day, no one would feel compelled to stage an intervention. I’ve had drugs. Kratom doesn’t feel like drugs.

[mivanqua]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

There seems to be a ceiling on the effects, so you can’t OD. It’s cheaper than any other “high” if that’s what you’re using it for, so it isn’t gonna ruin anyone financially... and it doesn’t seem to make you cloudy or crazy or mentally inhibited or impaired, so I don’t see the issue even if it is highly addictive.

This stuff allowed me to kick half a dozen prescription meds. I’m happy to take this every day for the rest of my life. I’m also addicted to eating food and drinking water and breathing air. So what? If I ate a salad every day, no one would feel compelled to stage an intervention. I’ve had drugs. Kratom doesn’t feel like drugs.

Trigger you're just in DENIAL! TOTALLY KIDDING! That's the crux of the biscuit and why they want it illegalized. Its a get out of addiction free card pretty much and it's the bona fide ANSWER to the cutting off of everyone's pain meds. It makes big pharma feel bummed out because nobody needs it anymore thanks to this god forsaken plant. The safety of it is exactly why its being demonized. They don't want people using a perfectly safe alternative to their ultra-addictive "medicines."

[Oletimer]

[quote][ herbalhippie » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:41 pm

Interesting. My cholesterol levels had always been within normal parameters until about 14 or 15 months ago when my bad cholesterol and triglycerides came up elevated. By that time, I had been using kratom for maybe a year, year and a half.quote] 6 months ago my bad cholesterol had doubled in a yrs time,,my kratom use had increased in that time,, interesting, ,I am getting blood work this week,,I will find out next week what levels are now compared to 6 months ago, ,I have been on crestor for 6 months,so I figured it should be lower or stable? ? I will have to read more about it,make sure I understand, ,but the increase may be due to atherosclerosis too?

[herbalhippie]

If you've been on statins it should be lower.

It took a VERY strict diet and a few supplements to get my cholesterol and triglycerides down just a little bit! It was very disheartening to see how little compared to how hard I worked at it. I won't take statins.

I did lose 40 # though so there's that.

[Oletimer]

Well that's a good thing,hard work DID pay off, ,even lowering a little cholesterol a tad is improvement,,,,I think age has a lot to do with it,,,I have no side effects from crestor, but I believe I seen you mention coQ10? I assume it is basically a strain on the brain,statins? If my cholesterol is not lower,, ,,well I'll wait to see before worrying about that,,worry causes blood pressure to rise,, ,my aunt is 93 has NO BP issue or cholesterol, diabetes, nothing (except for her pain), she ate a lot of bologna, hotdogs, all that stuff,,,still does! Wth?

[herbalhippie]

Yeah, CoQ10 Ubiquinol, for heart health. Statins will deplete your body of it, so you should supplement.

[beathappening]

Atorvastatin significantly altered kratom for me...in effects, duration, onset... basically everything. I don't know why, and I haven't really seen many other reports of it. Puzzling.

[Oletimer]

Humm, ,I do believe before crestor, ,kratom was better,effects, etc. I thought it was tolerance, but it is coincidental the timing, ,interesting, ,

[mivanqua]

I'm not a scientist (I just play one on TV) and I'm not sure what, but you guys just MAY be on an important trail here.

[pray4peace4]

@trigger...Hmmm. This study on blood chemistry does not & cannot be used to rate kratom's addiction potential. The study doesn't include that. There's been quite a few studies on kratom's addiction potential & I can't honestly say I've had time to read them yet.


The link... I didn't put that link in there, the Medline app did it. You may need a subscription to use it. This article originally appeared in the March 2018 Journal of Ethnopharmacology if you want to look it up. They won't let you read the whole article without $... wouldn't you know.

[demafrost]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

Definitely not life ruining but as a non-daily user, if I kick my dosing up to 3-4 times a week instead of 1-2 times a week, I get what I call intradose malice. By that I mean brain fog, low motivation, general blah feeling. It goes away after 2-3 days but its there every time I dose afterwards until I take a week off and reset. It's by no means something that causes me to shutdown my life. I go to work, do chores, play with my kids etc but I am of the belief that it does make me less productive at work and outside of work.

I believe that if you can't handling dosing 1-2 times a week, you are better off being a daily user, because dosing any more frequently leads to feeling crappy on off days. At 1-2 times a week I maintain my ability to get shit done at a high rate. If I was a daily user I'd definitely get my shit done too based on how productive I am on my "on days". And there is obviously nothing wrong with being a daily user, any negative effects from quitting are comparatively not bad at all. I just want to be dependent on as few things as possible as a personal goal. I am weaning off of caffeine and wellbutrin for the same reasons.

[mivanqua]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

Definitely not life ruining but as a non-daily user, if I kick my dosing up to 3-4 times a week instead of 1-2 times a week, I get what I call intradose malice.

I LOVE that phrase. Intradose malice is definitely a real thing. Brain fog in general is the only bad side effect of kratom in my opinion. Great observation.

[trigger]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

Definitely not life ruining but as a non-daily user, if I kick my dosing up to 3-4 times a week instead of 1-2 times a week, I get what I call intradose malice. By that I mean brain fog, low motivation, general blah feeling. It goes away after 2-3 days but its there every time I dose afterwards until I take a week off and reset. It's by no means something that causes me to shutdown my life. I go to work, do chores, play with my kids etc but I am of the belief that it does make me less productive at work and outside of work.

I believe that if you can't handling dosing 1-2 times a week, you are better off being a daily user, because dosing any more frequently leads to feeling crappy on off days. At 1-2 times a week I maintain my ability to get shit done at a high rate. If I was a daily user I'd definitely get my shit done too based on how productive I am on my "on days". And there is obviously nothing wrong with being a daily user, any negative effects from quitting are comparatively not bad at all. I just want to be dependent on as few things as possible as a personal goal. I am weaning off of caffeine and wellbutrin for the same reasons.

being off Wellbutrin for me is reason enough to stay on this daily.

I was once or twice a week for a couple years and never felt bad on off days. The decision to switch to daily was conscious and not because I felt compelled. I treat it as medicine or my morning coffee or like a multivitamin. Everyone is different. But I think there are far worse things to be dependent on or addicted to.

I agree that intradose malice is a great term tho.

[demafrost]

I remember seeing a sub forum on reddit where people all complained about how addictive kratom was and how it was ruining their lives. Worse than heroin and all that. I don’t get it at all. This is less addictive than coffee or cigarettes, imo. Habit forming, for sure. I haven’t experiemced withdrawal issues, but it’s been awhile since my last break. But life ruining? Sounds ridiculous.

Definitely not life ruining but as a non-daily user, if I kick my dosing up to 3-4 times a week instead of 1-2 times a week, I get what I call intradose malice. By that I mean brain fog, low motivation, general blah feeling. It goes away after 2-3 days but its there every time I dose afterwards until I take a week off and reset. It's by no means something that causes me to shutdown my life. I go to work, do chores, play with my kids etc but I am of the belief that it does make me less productive at work and outside of work.

I believe that if you can't handling dosing 1-2 times a week, you are better off being a daily user, because dosing any more frequently leads to feeling crappy on off days. At 1-2 times a week I maintain my ability to get shit done at a high rate. If I was a daily user I'd definitely get my shit done too based on how productive I am on my "on days". And there is obviously nothing wrong with being a daily user, any negative effects from quitting are comparatively not bad at all. I just want to be dependent on as few things as possible as a personal goal. I am weaning off of caffeine and wellbutrin for the same reasons.

being off Wellbutrin for me is reason enough to stay on this daily.

I was once or twice a week for a couple years and never felt bad on off days. The decision to switch to daily was conscious and not because I felt compelled. I treat it as medicine or my morning coffee or like a multivitamin. Everyone is different. But I think there are far worse things to be dependent on or addicted to.

I agree that intradose malice is a great term tho.

Yeah I don't feel bad at 1-2 days a week. It's when I've ventured closer to 4 days a week that I've gotten these effects. It's just dependence creeping up on me basically. My point was that if you don't want to limit yourself to just 1-2 days a week its better to just go all in and use daily so you don't deal with those effects between doses. It's like any other substance really...if I took caffeine 4 days a week I'd probably start waking up with bad headaches and the beginning stages of caffeine w/ds.

I didn't mean to make daily use sound like a bad thing because its 100% not at all or that those that use daily are forced into it. Even at 4 days a week with the negative effects I've gotten in the past, they aren't bad or life altering...just slightly annoying.