Curious about Tolerance

[Kirkland]

Hey Everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone has any knowledge or insight into why taking a strain multiple times will cause tolerance issues, but alternating somewhat alleviates this. Also the case with vendors, is it simply psychological and/or becoming accustomed to the feelings or is it something actual biologically or chemically related?

Hope you are all doing well!

[Celestial-Oceanic]

There are several alkaloids in kratom responsible for it's effects. When you take the same variety over and over, you get accustomed to that same "alk profile" and tolerance sets in.

Switching up varieties helps keep this at Bay.

[Greyfeather]

I'm starting to wonder if it isn't kinda psychological. It would be hard to believe that a vendor's entire menu comes from the same few trees or even the same location. I have read that even leaves from the same tree can differ chemically. Again, just not enough research. But I do rotate strains, vendors all the same

[BallzDeep9]

... why taking a strain multiple times will cause tolerance issues, but alternating somewhat alleviates this.

Bottom Line has to be.. Grams Per Day.. regardless of "strain" or vendor. Total gpd = the amount of constant activity on your mu opioid receptors, leading to the "phenomenon of desensitization" as described in article below. Kratom is NOT a drug or classic opioid.. But most of the effects we enjoy come from its role as partial agonist - So the MORE gpd, the faster those symptoms of tolerance will creep up.. day by day

What is "tolerance" ?? Wise Geek, has a pretty good article: https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-opioid-tolerance.htm

[Bestboy143]

To say Kratom is not a drug is simply wrong and misleading. It's not a hard drug or a classic/synthetic opiate, but it absolutely is a drug. And while the total amount you're taking each day is the biggest factor by far, there are other agonists at play in different ratios, so it does help a little to bounce around with a few different strains.

Best way is to see if it works is just to experiment for a week or two each way and see if you notice any differences.

[acejestyr15]

To say Kratom is not a drug is simply wrong and misleading. It's not a hard drug or a classic/synthetic opiate, but it absolutely is a drug. And while the total amount you're taking each day is the biggest factor by far, there are other agonists at play in different ratios, so it does help a little to bounce around with a few different strains.

Best way is to see if it works is just to experiment for a week or two each way and see if you notice any differences.

There are various dangers and issues with calling it a drug..... Please don't call it that's here. If it is referred to as a drug than the FDA will fully regulate it, and things will never be the same for any of us. That is just the beginning and most important reason to not refer to a NATURAL BOTANICAL as a drug!!!

[beathappening]

Caffeine and Tylenol are technically "drugs" too but people rarely refer to them as such, so as to distinguish them from street/recreational drugs. I think it's a similar thing with kratom. It's splitting hairs really to call it a drug.

[Greyfeather]

Caffeine and Tylenol are technically "drugs" too but people rarely refer to them as such, so as to distinguish them from street/recreational drugs. I think it's a similar thing with kratom. It's splitting hairs really to call it a drug.

The problem is with the word "Drug" itself. As usual, the medical industry uses this word when it wants to politicize ANY kind of substance. Then the "For It" or "Against It" legions use this one-size-fist-all definition to argue their positions:

"A medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body."


OK. So, every crumb of food I put into my mouth is a DRUG (See: Amino Acids and their role in both Body/Mind health); Every vitamin supplement I take is a drug (but it can't be, because Big Pharma can't get its hands on it). Cannabis is a "Drug" but NOT a "medicine" because billionaires can't figure out how to make billions AND cheat the government at the same time.

As we both know, the problem is language, and the word is "Drug." But I don't expect the American sector of R&D/Healthcare Industry to ask themselves what, in fact a drug IS.

As usual, we just have to remain vigilant and hope that our sisters/brothers will be there for us when they try to take something away from us - again.

[BallzDeep9]

As we both know, the problem is language, and the word is "Drug." But I don't expect the American sector of R&D/Healthcare Industry to ask themselves what, in fact a drug IS.

Right. Language IS important.. words have a political meaning.

Advocates for Kratom... fighting FOR legal access to kratom... according to the AKA, kratom is not a drug or opioid. That's what we are fighting agains. Red state Republicans call it a drug. IF you support kratom, learn the correct terminology!!

Here's a very SIMPLE analogy, is Aspirin a drug? Most would say, yeah, it's an OTC drug manufactured in a Lab... OK, then how about the Willow Tree? Is that tree a "drug" ?? Most would say NO, a tree is a tree.. leaves are leaves. OK but.. Aspirin IS made, from Willow Tree bark.

Saying, oh, kratom's a drug - is not only, inaccurate.. (is every natural substance a "drug" then ?? Tea leaves, and Chocolate? ) It's bad politics. The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat, drink, or smoke.. In the privacy of your home

Back to Aspirin. IF kratom is processed in a drug lab, and turned into pure Mitragynine - imo, that product IS a drug. It's a refined, manufactured product. We have a little problem - the AKA, is funded by big money Florida drug labs. So... raw, natural, kratom gets lumped in with O.P.M.S. extract. That's the fight in 2020!! Unfortunately "we" have too many stupid folks who insist on calling kratom an opioid.

[acejestyr15]

As we both know, the problem is language, and the word is "Drug." But I don't expect the American sector of R&D/Healthcare Industry to ask themselves what, in fact a drug IS.

Right. Language IS important.. words have a political meaning.

Advocates for Kratom... fighting FOR legal access to kratom... according to the AKA, kratom is not a drug or opioid. That's what we are fighting agains. Red state Republicans call it a drug. IF you support kratom, learn the correct terminology!!

Here's a very SIMPLE analogy, is Aspirin a drug? Most would say, yeah, it's an OTC drug manufactured in a Lab... OK, then how about the Willow Tree? Is that tree a "drug" ?? Most would say NO, a tree is a tree.. leaves are leaves. OK but.. Aspirin IS made, from Willow Tree bark.

Saying, oh, kratom's a drug - is not only, inaccurate.. (is every natural substance a "drug" then ?? Tea leaves, and Chocolate? ) It's bad politics. The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat, drink, or smoke.. In the privacy of your home

Back to Aspirin. IF kratom is processed in a drug lab, and turned into pure Mitragynine - imo, that product IS a drug. It's a refined, manufactured product. We have a little problem - the AKA, is funded by big money Florida drug labs. So... raw, natural, kratom gets lumped in with O.P.M.S. extract. That's the fight in 2020!! Unfortunately "we" have too many stupid folks who insist on calling kratom an opioid.

Well spoken/explained Ballz!! Thank you for elaborating on the point that I was beginning to try and make. This is exactly the sentiment that I was touching on....

[BallzDeep9]

thanks Ace, I guess we got off-topic again, lol getting political oh well

I am watching PBS Frontline tonight "America's Great Divide", as with most Frontline docs very well done. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/inte ... at-divide/

Today, PBS / NPR runs a article "The Kratom Debate" Helpful Herb Or Dangerous Drug ?? ( NPR.org ) here's the LINK - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... erous-drug .. Did anyone notice, the Comment Section is GONE, on NPR's website and on many Newspaper websites as of New Years Day? It's an Election Year.

[Babel-17]

Let food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/62262- ... e-thy-food

[Greyfeather]

Saying, oh, kratom's a drug - is not only, inaccurate.. (is every natural substance a "drug" then ?? Tea leaves, and Chocolate? ) It's bad politics. The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat, drink, or smoke.. In the privacy of your home

Did I say something wrong? This was, more or less, my point.

[Haid3r]

Did anyone notice, the Comment Section is GONE, on NPR's website and on many Newspaper websites as of New Years Day? It's an Election Year.

NPR removed their comment function quite some time ago. They realized (like many papers have) that an unmoderated, anonymous comment section devolves into a dumpster fire in about 10 minutes.

For once, there's nothing nefarious behind this one!

[Greyfeather]

Saying, oh, kratom's a drug - is not only, inaccurate.. (is every natural substance a "drug" then ?? Tea leaves, and Chocolate? ) It's bad politics. The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat, drink, or smoke.. In the privacy of your home

Did I say something wrong? This was, more or less, my point.

I would still like some feedback:
Did I say something pointless and stupid? It's OK if I write something dumb, but folks can still gain by it. But a thread resulted. Please tell me if my comment was straight-up stupid so that I won't ask dumb questions again. I have a pretty thick skin, but I'm also a a woman: We are tired of being shit-posted because of our gender.

Maybe I don't understand. I was just trying to point out the way the word "Drug" is abused and used politically.
LOL, did I expect to get any 'credit' for pointing this out???
I actually thought someone would say "Kudos."
But. No. Ya'll just congratulated each other for recognizing the subtleties of the word " Drug."

Your'`1e Welcome

[BallzDeep9]

Maybe I don't understand. I was just trying to point out the way the word "Drug" is abused and used politically.

yeah I agreed with you! my Reply was more toward the person who suggested, kratom = drug. Sorry if I wasn't clear or, maybe the thread has 5 people all posting different un-related comments... it happens . My apologies also, to those looking for "tolerance" info .. there's always a Search Bar

[RumRunner]

The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat.

I’m sorry. What? Was that Liberal Michael Bloomberg banning 32oz. soft drinks in NYC? And Obama’s DEA banning kratom in August of 2016? Or am I mistaken?

[oohger]

Kirkland. See what you did. #whoneedstwitter? Search...

[acejestyr15]

Saying, oh, kratom's a drug - is not only, inaccurate.. (is every natural substance a "drug" then ?? Tea leaves, and Chocolate? ) It's bad politics. The words Drug and Opioid, have become political terms in 2020 - ever since Nancy Reagan started her silly "War on Drugs" and the Republicans want Big Brother to decide what you can eat, drink, or smoke.. In the privacy of your home

Did I say something wrong? This was, more or less, my point.

I would still like some feedback:
Did I say something pointless and stupid? It's OK if I write something dumb, but folks can still gain by it. But a thread resulted. Please tell me if my comment was straight-up stupid so that I won't ask dumb questions again. I have a pretty thick skin, but I'm also a a woman: We are tired of being shit-posted because of our gender.

Maybe I don't understand. I was just trying to point out the way the word "Drug" is abused and used politically.
LOL, did I expect to get any 'credit' for pointing this out???
I actually thought someone would say "Kudos."
But. No. Ya'll just congratulated each other for recognizing the subtleties of the word " Drug."

Your'`1e Welcome

I think you took things totally the wrong way at least from my side!! I wasn't ignoring, invalidating, nor bashing your views and no wasn't a stupid comment/question!! And also, like Ballz said my comment and what not was really in reference to bestboy not you, my friend. Not to mention, none of any of this has anything to do with your gender.... As if I or anyone else knew whether you were male or female.

Try not to read too far into things, it's difficult to decipher body language, tone, and things like that from text only.... This community is generally very kind, civil, and on the same team as one another so I usually auto lean towards a misunderstanding rather than someone being malicious in anyways... No worries lady!!!

[Greyfeather]

Eh, NBD

[creatus]

It's important to be politically smart as well as informative like what we see demonstrated by the veterans on this forum (you guys are inspirational, thanks!). What we see on the kratom reddit page on the other hand are ridiculous political standards enforcing fake positivity to the point where actually educational information is censored out. I do not see how that approach won't backfire.

[BurntEnds]

It's important to be politically smart as well as informative like what we see demonstrated by the veterans on this forum (you guys are inspirational, thanks!). What we see on the kratom reddit page on the other hand are ridiculous political standards enforcing fake positivity to the point where actually educational information is censored out. I do not see how that approach won't backfire.

From my perspective it has fully backfired... Which is at least a part of why this forum was started and why many of the veterans have migrated over here as a place where information can actually be discussed openly.

[Bestboy143]

We regularly talk about misinformation, propaganda articles, and fear mongering by the media and FDA when it pertains to kratom. Saying it's not a drug is the opposite side of that misinformation spectrum. I'm actually surprised to see so many even try to argue this point.

Just because the word "drug" might have a negative connotation for some people, doesn't alter its definition. Kratom is a drug. Plain and simple. Caffeine is a drug. Marijuana is a drug. Heroin is a drug. Xanax is a drug. These are facts. The Teylenol argument doesn't even compare; do you get withdrawals from the phsyiological change that occurs in your brain when you stop taking Teylenol?

There's a difference between limiting your use of the word "drug" because ignorant people would automatically view it negatively and flat out lying about what something is. People can figure out which drugs are helpful and harmful for themselves. It's not up to you to change the definition of words to suit your cause.

[beathappening]

Let me guess, you're one of those people that object to the phrase 'alcohol and drugs' because "alcohol is a drug!!"

There's the definition of a word, but words can also be used informally. No one's trying to change the definition, it's ok. Limiting the use and not throwing around the word drug when talking about kratom is, I think, the goal. Just because it is technically a drug doesn't mean you need to constantly refer to it as such. I take Prozac but I don't need to tell everyone that "I'm on drugs". Magnesium and turmeric are also "drugs" but they're more commonly referred to as supplements. Yes, there are certain negative connotations that come to the average person's mind when they hear "drug". I don't consider them to be ignorant, even though they technically are, according to the formal definition. It sounds insulting. It's a similar thing. If someone asked, I wouldn't lie about it, but it deserves more of a clarification. I think the fact that we're actively fighting propaganda should be considered a factor, and that we should choose our words more carefully, and try to avoid words that are going to cause confusion.

People can figure out which drugs are helpful and harmful for themselves.

The FDA begs to differ.

[acejestyr15]

We regularly talk about misinformation, propaganda articles, and fear mongering by the media and FDA when it pertains to kratom. Saying it's not a drug is the opposite side of that misinformation spectrum. I'm actually surprised to see so many even try to argue this point.

Just because the word "drug" might have a negative connotation for some people, doesn't alter its definition. Kratom is a drug. Plain and simple. Caffeine is a drug. Marijuana is a drug. Heroin is a drug. Xanax is a drug. These are facts. The Teylenol argument doesn't even compare; do you get withdrawals from the phsyiological change that occurs in your brain when you stop taking Teylenol?

There's a difference between limiting your use of the word "drug" because ignorant people would automatically view it negatively and flat out lying about what something is. People can figure out which drugs are helpful and harmful for themselves. It's not up to you to change the definition of words to suit your cause.

Plain and simple.... Your wrong! The Kratom community as a whole has to agree to not refer to it as a drug!! It's a fact.... If it's considered a "drug" then the FDA and DEA will regulate, ban, modify, and otherwise do as they please with it! Do your research.... This is one of the largest issues that the government is trying to use against us.

Think about it.... Who controls all the DRUGS?!?!

GOVERNMENT THAT'S WHO! So if you want them to control this NATURAL BOTANICAL LEAF as well, then continue your misuse of terminology....... Otherwise please jump onboard and do whatever we can to not give them reasons to target Kratom and the community any longer.

Really all it comes down to here folks....

[ArchaicNeologism]

We regularly talk about misinformation, propaganda articles, and fear mongering by the media and FDA when it pertains to kratom. Saying it's not a drug is the opposite side of that misinformation spectrum. I'm actually surprised to see so many even try to argue this point.

Just because the word "drug" might have a negative connotation for some people, doesn't alter its definition. Kratom is a drug. Plain and simple. Caffeine is a drug. Marijuana is a drug. Heroin is a drug. Xanax is a drug. These are facts. The Teylenol argument doesn't even compare; do you get withdrawals from the phsyiological change that occurs in your brain when you stop taking Teylenol?

There's a difference between limiting your use of the word "drug" because ignorant people would automatically view it negatively and flat out lying about what something is. People can figure out which drugs are helpful and harmful for themselves. It's not up to you to change the definition of words to suit your cause.

Plain and simple.... Your wrong! The Kratom community as a whole had to agree to not refer to it a drug!! It's a fact.... If it's considered a "drug" then the FDA and deal will regulate, ban, modify, and otherwise do as they please with it! Do your research.... This is one of the largest issues that's the government is trying to use against us.

Think about it.... Who controls all the DRUGS?!?!

GOVERNMENT THAT'S WHO! So if you want them to control this NATURAL BOTANICAL LEAF as well, then continue your misuse of terminology....... Otherwise please jump onboard and do whatever we can to not give them reasons to Target Kratom and the community and longer.

Really all it comes down to here folks....

I feel like I understand this whole debate a lot better now after reading this. I've always silently held Bestboy's opinion and sort of rolled my eyes at the "not a drug" argument, but this really clarifies what's at stake and the sense in which the term is sufficiently ambiguous to stop using it without entirely lying or spreading misinformation. Yes it's a drug, in multiple senses of the term. No it's not a drug, in another very important sense of the term that certain people are trying to exploit. Because of the potential implications of the latter, it's in all of our best interests to stop calling it a drug. That doesn't mean there aren't other important senses in which it is; it just means we probably shouldn't be referring to it as such in open discussions on the web.

[acejestyr15]

I feel like I understand this whole debate a lot better now after reading this. I've always silently held Bestboy's opinion and sort of rolled my eyes at the "not a drug" argument, but this really clarifies what's at stake and the sense in which the term is sufficiently ambiguous to stop using it without entirely lying or spreading misinformation. Yes it's a drug, in multiple senses of the term. No it's not a drug, in another very important sense of the term that certain people are trying to exploit. Because of the potential implications of the latter, it's in all of our best interests to stop calling it a drug. That doesn't mean there aren't other important senses in which it is; it just means we probably shouldn't be referring to it as such in open discussions on the web.

Very eloquently put thank you!! That is really all I am getting at as well.... No one here denies any of the facts about Kratom here, but at the very same time we are playing by someone else's rules unfortunately. So therefore, since the ppl making the rules say it can't be looked or treated as a drug while not being regulated or controlled in anyway then we need to wipe that term out of our index of playing cards that's all. We all just need to be on the same team and truly understand everything that's going on, and or can very quickly happen. My state, New Jersey, is currently looking to once again vote on a full ban on Kratom and make it a crime to sell, own, carry, or or purchase so I have always and especially now take the situation quite seriously!

[BallzDeep9]

I'm glad we can discuss things here on MM; however it seems, even a "simple" subject can't be agreed on... There's always some ass-hat on a soap-box making a silly argument! Unfortunately no matter the Forum.. It's gotten to the point, where folks just don't bother wasting their time on Forums... like Reddit. Which is a shame.

NO, we don't have to ALL agree on everything ALL the time.. But on a Kratom Forum it seems reasonable to expect, we're all Pro Kratom here? And for new folks.. We take time to educate, and explain things. Ever since I've known about kratom... there has always been a Legal fight!! We are fighting for Kratom to remain a legal herbal supplement. NOT a drug.. That's the fight.

Kratom is a drug. Plain and simple. Caffeine is a drug. Marijuana is a drug. Heroin is a drug. Xanax is a drug. These are facts.

Let me post a Link to Dictionary.com HERE. Now.. Kratom doesn't FIT any definition of the word "drug". Also... I'm assuming everyone here, knows how to READ and understand, a Dictionary? Maybe not? lol

Kratom IS simply ground up leaves.. NOT a "Chemical Substance" as defined #1 in the Dictionary - so your Opinion is dis-proven right there. OK.. move on to definition #2 and #3 (Words often have multiple definitions!) ... Does it fit ANY of those Dictionary definitions?

We've got TWO main Dictionary definitions: 1- Pharmacology, and 2- Federal Law. We've already proven you are wrong on #1. Kratom is NOT a chemical... I mean, your examples are silly. Pure Caffeine is a chemical.. So if you're taking caffeine pills then, yeah.. but Coffee isn't considered a drug. Coffee is a beverage. Pure Ethanol is a chemical.. but Beer (12% alcohol) isn't a drug. Beer is a controlled substance.. Marijuana? Meets the Dictionary definition #2

Federal Law? Kratom is NOT defined as a "drug" OR a controlled substance, under U.S. Federal Law. Right? So... you're wrong on #2 also. (Yes, other countries DO define kratom as a Narcotic - but we're located in the USA.. Finally we get down to Dictionary #3 definition: A habit-forming medicinal or illicit substance, especially a narcotic. That would be the "loose" definition...

Herbal Supplements are not considered "medicine".. By Law. Is kratom habit forming? Probably.. BUT kratom is not illicit, OR a narcotic.. At least in the USA - Kratom is fully Legal in most states. Kratom is NOT defined as a "narcotic" under our Law.. Here in the USA, not a drug. In England? Yes its a drug under their Law.

Whew. That got everyone enlightened... Or confused? One or the other

[Kirkland]

Kirkland. See what you did. #whoneedstwitter? Search...

Sorry!

This was a great topic to read and watch though. I don’t have anything meaningful to comment with what hasn’t been already said, but just appreciating everyone’s thoughts and responses!