Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

I have a question I have always been curious about. How could anyone tell if a vendors batch had a small amount of extract to make it feel stronger?

I would assume that it would be too expensive to put extract in and sell it for a regular price....other than that all of the enhanced leaf i ever got had a different texture to it than regular, have you tried to mix it with water?

If I was a vendor, id make my own little special extract batch for myself and not sale, just to dip into occasionally. I suppose I could do that now, but i'd want to have the right equipment to to do pure alks, and wear it around my neck jar of gypsy tears at night to protect me from aids.

Ilikerafts wrote:If I was a vendor, id make my own little special extract batch for myself and not sale, just to dip into occasionally. I suppose I could do that now, but i'd want to have the right equipment to to do pure alks, and wear it around my neck jar of gypsy tears at night to protect me from aids.

Ilikerafts wrote:If I was a vendor, id make my own little special extract batch for myself and not sale, just to dip into occasionally. I suppose I could do that now, but i'd want to have the right equipment to to do pure alks, and wear it around my neck jar of gypsy tears at night to protect me from aids.

I have made extracts twice with bunk stuff. It's not cost effective at all and really wrecks tolerance. I know some vendors do have "enhanced" powder that is usually some extract in it, but I feel this is overkill and attracts the wrong audience. I don't think it's good for the community at all. If I see mitra over 2 or over .15 7ohm I suspect it's enhanced.

FartBlaster wrote: How could anyone tell if a vendors batch had a small amount of extract ... ?

How could anyone tell? Spend LOTS of dollars $ to test the batch? Otherwise... NO Way to "tell" really.. And what consumer, is gonna pay much extra $ for every single batch they buy? Right. Nobody.

As discussed on Reddit a long while ago... there IS a principle (coined by the CIA, from the 1960's) called plausible deniability. Which means... "anything goes", ANY type of cheating, fixing, drugging, or bullshit... is just FINE - As long as your story covers your ass? Right? Hey, Free Enterprise baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

BUT! Here comes.. the KCPA. The proposal under AKA's new 'Regulation' IS, that every batch must be tested for both Mitra % and also 7-Hydroxymitragynine % aka 7-OHM, which is a very very expensive lab test. So... IF that test is done correctly then, yeah, you'd be somewhat confident of alkaloid levels not 'spiked' with extract. IMO... that's a big IF. Maybe Fused flora could comment, but I believe a 7-Ohm test on small batches would more than double our price of kratom?

https://www.ensobotanicals.com/mitragyn ... alkaloids/

I think about “bait and switch” as more of a concern than additives and extracts. I’ve received samples that were fire, and upon larger reorder I got similar but didn’t quite pack the same punch. Maybe someone dumping average leaf. Hopefully just a different batch and unintentional.

RumRunner wrote:I think about “bait and switch” as more of a concern than additives and extracts. I’ve received samples that were fire, and upon larger reorder, I got similar but didn’t quite pack the same punch. Maybe someone dumping average leaf. Hopefully just a different batch and unintentional.

As a consumer, I had many times where I thought I was "bait and switched"... I wrote off one of my favorite vendors over it. It certainly may be happening, but I now know there are other very good possibilities for this suspicion.... none of them are nefarious.

I wrote a little bit about it in my latest update to the "behind the scenes of the kratom industry post". Scroll down towards the bottom of page 1 and you will find it in the "favorite strains" section. Can I just say I am so glad I put so many thoughts in one place - I feel like I reference it all the time... what a time saver!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2931

Regarding extract in batches, I have heard of this before but dont think I have come across this myself. If I recall correctly, I think Ben at Lucky Herbals ran into this before he was vending - I think it was part of the reason he began vending! (to avoid this scenario again).

I'm sure people are doing it, but I would think you could only do it if you were charging a pretty high price per kg. I dont see how it would be cost-effective for any vendor who is selling K'gs under $100 - unless they are putting the tiniest of amounts (but if you are going to only put a tiny amount, what is the point?).

fusedflora wrote:

Ilikerafts wrote:If I was a vendor, id make my own little special extract batch for myself and not sale, just to dip into occasionally. I suppose I could do that now, but i'd want to have the right equipment to to do pure alks, and wear it around my neck jar of gypsy tears at night to protect me from aids.

I have made extracts twice with bunk stuff. It's not cost effective at all and really wrecks tolerance. I know some vendors do have "enhanced" powder that is usually some extract in it, but I feel this is overkill and attracts the wrong audience. I don't think it's good for the community at all. If I see mitra over 2 or over .15 7ohm I suspect it's enhanced.

Amen Shaun. Early in my kratom days, I dabbled in "enhanced blends" and they completely wrecked my tolerance. There is another vendor that I used to be a fanboy of who made some great extracts - some of you can probably guess who that is. There is one they make that is like $45 for a single gram, and you need a serious scale to measure out how much to mix into your serving. That stuff is by far the cleanest feeling extract I ever experienced, but it was so potent that it's terrifying. I can only imagine what would happen if somebody took the whole gram.... seriously the thought scares me.

I wonder - does anyone here remember the original UEI extract? That stuff destroyed people's lives.

Take it after somebody who has done pretty much everything kratom - stick to plain leaf. The small and short gains you get from extract quickly and completely turn around on you. Pretty soon no amount of kratom - extract and all will do anything but give you negative effects.

Be smart.

I 100% agree with you Chris ! Well said brother man!!

I rarely take extracts, a company I’m reviewing right now has very good and clean extract that really impressed me .... but the long and short of it is this is a “once and while “ endeavor .... 2 days out of the month if that !! And only if when seriously hurting and feel like the benefit from taking a little justifies the means . Beyond shady and super bad karma for any vendor slipping extract into pure leaf without it being know to us consumers !!
Beyond grateful for all the integrity filled vendors we have ... Shame on the shady ones.... bad juju and then some !

BallzDeep9 wrote:

FartBlaster wrote: How could anyone tell if a vendors batch had a small amount of extract ... ?

How could anyone tell? Spend LOTS of dollars $ to test the batch? Otherwise... NO Way to "tell" really.. And what consumer, is gonna pay much extra $ for every single batch they buy? Right. Nobody.

As discussed on Reddit a long while ago... there IS a principle (coined by the CIA, from the 1960's) called plausible deniability. Which means... "anything goes", ANY type of cheating, fixing, drugging, or bullshit... is just FINE - As long as your story covers your ass? Right? Hey, Free Enterprise baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

BUT! Here comes.. the KCPA. The proposal under AKA's new 'Regulation' IS, that every batch must be tested for both Mitra % and also 7-Hydroxymitragynine % aka 7-OHM, which is a very very expensive lab test. So... IF that test is done correctly then, yeah, you'd be somewhat confident of alkaloid levels not 'spiked' with extract. IMO... that's a big IF. Maybe Fused flora could comment, but I believe a 7-Ohm test on small batches would more than double our price of kratom?

https://www.ensobotanicals.com/mitragyn ... alkaloids/

You are absolutely correct. This will destroy small vendors. $129 per test from Wonderland Labs, who is not a certified lab if I recall correctly. Anresco and others are more expensive than that. Big vendors that import 500kg of one batch will have no problem doing this... But totally inaccurate in my opinion. But whatever satisfies the law. I just don't see why the KCPA didn't go into testing specifics. I really do think some aspects were written for the larger vendors to profit from.

gumbyke1 wrote:

fusedflora wrote:

Ilikerafts wrote:If I was a vendor, id make my own little special extract batch for myself and not sale, just to dip into occasionally. I suppose I could do that now, but i'd want to have the right equipment to to do pure alks, and wear it around my neck jar of gypsy tears at night to protect me from aids.

I have made extracts twice with bunk stuff. It's not cost effective at all and really wrecks tolerance. I know some vendors do have "enhanced" powder that is usually some extract in it, but I feel this is overkill and attracts the wrong audience. I don't think it's good for the community at all. If I see mitra over 2 or over .15 7ohm I suspect it's enhanced.

Amen Shaun. Early in my kratom days, I dabbled in "enhanced blends" and they completely wrecked my tolerance. There is another vendor that I used to be a fanboy of who made some great extracts - some of you can probably guess who that is. There is one they make that is like $45 for a single gram, and you need a serious scale to measure out how much to mix into your serving. That stuff is by far the cleanest feeling extract I ever experienced, but it was so potent that it's terrifying. I can only imagine what would happen if somebody took the whole gram.... seriously the thought scares me.

I wonder - does anyone here remember the original UEI extract? That stuff destroyed people's lives.

Take it after somebody who has done pretty much everything kratom - stick to plain leaf. The small and short gains you get from extract quickly and completely turn around on you. Pretty soon no amount of kratom - extract and all will do anything but give you negative effects.

Be smart.

Hey Chris, just curious and I hope this is not inappropriate to ask , did you ever try or know anything about Herbal Salvation's Maha Kali? I used to call it my "kidney stone kratom" because it was the best pain killing kratom I ever tried and helped me deal with kidney stones. (I've had 40 over the past 11 years, but only 3 or 4 since starting kratom daily 4 years ago. Curious if there is correlation there)

Herbal Salvation (now called Viable Solutions) still sells Maha Kali but now on the website they say that they may "enhance" the Maha Kali if it doesn't come back from the labs showing certain % of numbers they look for to indicate strength. The description mentions they don't always enhance it but may on occasion depending on lab results. Back in 2016/2017 when I would buy Maha kali from them, they never had that note in the description of the strain. I recently bought from them a few months ago to try the Maha Kali again, just a sample 25g bag. It was a good strong red but NOTHING like what it used to be (I think they switched suppliers last year so that may be why).

You don't have to answer this is if you don't know or you're not comfortable speaking about another vendor (totally understandable). Since enhanced kratom was brought up I was just curious if you or anyone else knows about the Maha Kali; still my all time favorite once-in-a-blue-moon-used strain lol. My mother and I only used this strain very sparingly, only on our worse pain days or specific things like kidney stones, so it never effected my tolerance, but I could see it doing so if used regularly.

Sorry if this is off topic. I think it applies to the topic of integrity in the market cause Herbal Salvation/Viable Solution now notes they may enhance this strain but never did make note of enhancing it years ago. I could see that being a def issue if they were enhancing some strains without letting customers know. Thanks!

gumbyke1 wrote:

RumRunner wrote:I think about “bait and switch” as more of a concern than additives and extracts. I’ve received samples that were fire, and upon larger reorder, I got similar but didn’t quite pack the same punch. Maybe someone dumping average leaf. Hopefully just a different batch and unintentional.

As a consumer, I had many times where I thought I was "bait and switched"... I wrote off one of my favorite vendors over it. It certainly may be happening, but I now know there are other very good possibilities for this suspicion.... none of them are nefarious.

I wrote a little bit about it in my latest update to the "behind the scenes of the kratom industry post". Scroll down towards the bottom of page 1 and you will find it in the "favorite strains" section. Can I just say I am so glad I put so many thoughts in one place - I feel like I reference it all the time... what a time saver!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2931

Regarding extract in batches, I have heard of this before but dont think I have come across this myself. If I recall correctly, I think Ben at Lucky Herbals ran into this before he was vending - I think it was part of the reason he began vending! (to avoid this scenario again).

I'm sure people are doing it, but I would think you could only do it if you were charging a pretty high price per kg. I dont see how it would be cost-effective for any vendor who is selling K'gs under $100 - unless they are putting the tiniest of amounts (but if you are going to only put a tiny amount, what is the point?).

That is absolutely correct, Chris! We were getting something synthetic in our kratom... since then that vendor has thankfully closed his doors.

I’m so utterly grateful for you solid vendors , can’t ThNk you folks enough !

CatfatherB wrote:I would assume that it would be too expensive to put extract in and sell it for a regular price....other than that all of the enhanced leaf i ever got had a different texture to it than regular, have you tried to mix it with water?

it wouldn't be economical, you're right. it is also not water soluble, and has a distinct taste.

7ohm wrote:

CatfatherB wrote:I would assume that it would be too expensive to put extract in and sell it for a regular price....other than that all of the enhanced leaf i ever got had a different texture to it than regular, have you tried to mix it with water?

it wouldn't be economical, you're right. it is also not water soluble, and has a distinct taste.

That distinct taste? ASS.

See the trick is to add just the right amount of LSD and the people, they just can't get enough of this stuff

creatus wrote:See the trick is to add just the right amount of LSD and the people, they just can't get enough of this stuff

Lol, how much "people" do I need to add to the recipe (along with the LSD)? One people? Do peoples come in grams?

This is going to be an interesting experiment