Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

Taking a large amount of leaf often results in no or diminished effects.

Why does taking an extract which is concentrated leaf cause a strong effect?

(I have not taken an extract before.)

Great question. Following

What vendor extracts are you using?

So when I have kratom that I can't sell.... I sell it to the headships and they do with it what they do. When they have bad kratom, a common practice is for them to extract the alkaloids (to still get money from bunk). It's typically not fiscally sound to make extracts from just a small amount, so most the vendors wait until they can make anywhere from 20-50k of powder into extract. In saying, it's a hodgepodge of mixes (like train wreck), to feed into the extract.

So think full spectrum, as you're getting kratom from multiple farms, harvests, and suppliers. Though the kratom used might not be particularly strong, it's concentrated and likely has alks you're not used to having (perhaps immature leaf). I would think that this is what it is.

Bunk bali has it's place...... in extracts.

Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter if you take a lot often. You can only digest so much plant matter before you body just sort of gives up on it lol. Extracts you can keep taking more and your body will still metabolize it. Less of an overall alkaloid profile as well just the alkaloids(opioids) we care about in extracts.

mitragy9 wrote:Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter if you take a lot often. You can only digest so much plant matter before you body just sort of gives up on it lol. Extracts you can keep taking more and your body will still metabolize it. Less of an overall alkaloid profile as well just the alkaloids(opioids) we care about in extracts.

oh yeah, this too, I use tea which is an extraction as well. This is a better response than mine, as there is loss in efficiency of digestion at high levels, you'll pass some without full digestion.

mitragy9 wrote:Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter if you take a lot often. You can only digest so much plant matter before you body just sort of gives up on it lol. Extracts you can keep taking more and your body will still metabolize it. Less of an overall alkaloid profile as well just the alkaloids(opioids) we care about in extracts.

would you recommend someone like me with severe crohn's disease to give extracts a try on certain occasions? as i have pretty horrible absorption problems with any medicine or substance i have to take majority of the time. it's always been in the back of my mind that it might help on those days the inflammation is out of control and nothing absorbs right but i don't know where i'd even start. i still get pretty awesome effects from my usual dose of 5-7g once or twice a day but i'm wondering if i could be using even less with something that might have a lot better bioavailability for me. sorry my friend i didn't direct this at FF for obvious reasons but looking for anyones opinions/suggestions.

I have not taken an extract before.

Good responses, thanks.

nomo wrote:

mitragy9 wrote:Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter if you take a lot often. You can only digest so much plant matter before you body just sort of gives up on it lol. Extracts you can keep taking more and your body will still metabolize it. Less of an overall alkaloid profile as well just the alkaloids(opioids) we care about in extracts.

would you recommend someone like me with severe crohn's disease to give extracts a try on certain occasions? as i have pretty horrible absorption problems with any medicine or substance i have to take majority of the time. it's always been in the back of my mind that it might help on those days the inflammation is out of control and nothing absorbs right but i don't know where i'd even start. i still get pretty awesome effects from my usual dose of 5-7g once or twice a day but i'm wondering if i could be using even less with something that might have a lot better bioavailability for me. sorry my friend i didn't direct this at FF for obvious reasons but looking for anyones opinions/suggestions.

It wouldn't hurt to try if you just plan on using it for certain occasions however extracts can be pretty pricey and sometimes they just don't work. I've only had luck making my own extracts with a standard dcm extraction. Even just taking a higher dose in the form of tea with the plant matter filtered out may help your situation. I still take kratom with the plant matter but every other week I will switch to filtered tea for a couple of days to give my bowls a break lol. Seems to help with the constipation for me as well. Hydration is really important as well I don't think people realize how much water is really needed to stay hydrated when taking kratom often.

nomo wrote:

mitragy9 wrote:Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter if you take a lot often. You can only digest so much plant matter before you body just sort of gives up on it lol. Extracts you can keep taking more and your body will still metabolize it. Less of an overall alkaloid profile as well just the alkaloids(opioids) we care about in extracts.

would you recommend someone like me with severe crohn's disease to give extracts a try on certain occasions? as i have pretty horrible absorption problems with any medicine or substance i have to take majority of the time. it's always been in the back of my mind that it might help on those days the inflammation is out of control and nothing absorbs right but i don't know where i'd even start. i still get pretty awesome effects from my usual dose of 5-7g once or twice a day but i'm wondering if i could be using even less with something that might have a lot better bioavailability for me. sorry my friend i didn't direct this at FF for obvious reasons but looking for anyones opinions/suggestions.

thanks for that.

fusedflora wrote:

mitragy9 wrote:Probably because extracts are more bio available and easier to metabolize I've noticed over time your body begins to become taxed with digesting all that plant matter ....

oh yeah, this too, I use Tea which is an extraction as well.

Absolutely. Bioavailable. Prep your raw powder, Red Bubble Tea, use all 3 steps: Heat, Acid, Freeze - to optimize extraction (which turns the leafy plant matter into soft sludge)... add one more factor, Time, to go even further... most Full Spectrum extract recipes I've seen, call for pre-processing powder with (Acid or Ethanol) and Time... some suggest 1-2 weeks!

Any pure kratom extract, is STILL a partial agonist, which means U run into the same ceiling where taking more & more does not produce good effects... only bad side effects beyond a certain point. You don't hear of anyone OD on MIT-45 why? Well partly because it's like $20 bucks for 1 serving, lol, compared with < $1 for one serving Red Bubble Tea home extract

BallzDeep9 wrote: Absolutely. Bioavailable. Prep your raw powder, Red Bubble Tea, use all 3 steps: Heat, Acid, Freeze - to optimize extraction (which turns the leafy plant matter into soft sludge)... add one more factor, Time, to go even further... most Full Spectrum extract recipes I've seen, call for pre-processing powder with (Acid or Ethanol) and Time... some suggest 1-2 weeks!

Any pure kratom extract, is STILL a partial agonist, which means U run into the same ceiling where taking more & more does not produce good effects... only bad side effects beyond a certain point. You don't hear of anyone OD on MIT-45 why? Well partly because it's like $20 bucks for 1 serving, lol, compared with < $1 for one serving Red Bubble Tea home extract

Both mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine degrade in acidic environments rather quickly, time is most certainly not your friend here. Even hours can cause a significant degradation in both of these important alkaloids if the ph is low enough. If you're going to go through the trouble of freezing tea use as little acid as possible.

Understanding the Physicochemical Properties of Mitragynine, a Principal Alkaloid of Mitragyna speciosa, for Preclinical Evaluation

mitragy9 wrote:... if the ph is low enough. If you're going to go through the trouble of freezing tea use as little acid as possible.

Understanding the Physicochemical Properties of Mitragynine, a Principal Alkaloid of Mitragyna speciosa, for Preclinical Evaluation

yes, good Link thanks for posting. I do use the pH drops made for drinking water... more expensive than baking soda, but both are cheap... just 1+ hour in hot water w/ choice of acid (citric or acetic) you can see, alkaloids have separated from plant matter which settles to bottom of cup. At that point, add pH drops, stir and freeze!

Why use the drops Ballz, just a matter of flavor?

yeah, flavor, that's probably it - I just thought since they're made for that purpose? I do enjoy my cold kratom drinks! Tangerine/ Mango is good

IndelibleDotInk wrote:Why use the drops Ballz, just a matter of flavor?

He's neutralizing the acid with a base(upping the ph) so it will no longer degrade the alkaloids when he freezes it. All the acid is good for is separating(extracting) the alkaloids from the plant material into a solution after that it's no longer useful for the freezing TEK.

mitragy9 wrote:

IndelibleDotInk wrote:Why use the drops Ballz, just a matter of flavor?

He's neutralizing the acid with a base(upping the ph) so it will no longer degrade the alkaloids when he freezes it. All the acid is good for is separating(extracting) the alkaloids from the plant material into a solution after that it's no longer useful for the freezing TEK.

How long after adding the acid should you add the baking soda? More/less than 20 minutes?
Thanks!

mitragy9 wrote:

IndelibleDotInk wrote:Why use the drops Ballz, just a matter of flavor?

He's neutralizing the acid with a base(upping the ph) so it will no longer degrade the alkaloids when he freezes it. All the acid is good for is separating(extracting) the alkaloids from the plant material into a solution after that it's no longer useful for the freezing TEK.

Asking the diff btwn using baking soda and the ph drops.

Greyfeather wrote: How long after adding the acid should you add the baking soda? More/less than 20 minutes?
Thanks!

anywhere from 20 minutes - 60 minutes depends on what you're trying to do, you only want to add a base if you plan on storing the solution not taking it right away. For example making multiple doses of tea, doing the freezing method, making extracts. That's when you want to add a base so you up the PH. If you plan on just making one dose of tea and plan on taking it right away there is no need to neutralize.

IndelibleDotInk wrote: Asking the diff btwn using baking soda and the ph drops.

They are basically doing the same thing but are completely different things, those alkaline drops are a concoction of various alkaline ingredients and has a much higher PH than baking soda. Baking soda(sodium bicarbonate) is the cheapest solution but either one would work. The drops would definitely be easier to use, using baking soda takes some guess work lol. You don't want to up the ph too much just enough to neutralize the acid(or at the very least keep it slightly acidic) takes some technique it's way easier if you have ph strips to see what the ph is to begin with

Thanks mitra!