Plantation Grown Kratom vs Wild Grown Kratom

[Vipercuda69]

Which is better, in your opinion, Plantation Grown Kratom or Wild Grown Kratom? Which one, in your opinion, has a higher alkaloid content of the 2-4 primary alkaloids? Which one, in your opinion, has a more extensive and fuller spectrum of alkaloids? Which do you prefer and why?

[Burninator]

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed a difference, personally.

[Vipercuda69]

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed a difference, personally.

Thanks for the honesty Burninator. I haven’t noticed much of a difference either. The main “theory” is that Wild Grown has a higher alkaloid content because the leaf comes from old trees. But it’s not hard to plant a tree in the Wild and call it Wild. That tree could be 3-4 years old. Making it inferior to a 20 year old tree. From what I understand, alkaloids build up in the leaves of tree that are very mature. Well over 5 years. But that can sometimes be overcome by using clones of an old tree, so the clone has much of the genetics built in and that can sometime give you the alkaloid profile of a 20 year old tree in a tree that’s only 3 years old. I want to be clear. I’m no expert. I’m opining and guessing. The same argument applies to plantation Grown. They can claim they have replicated the soil and growing conditions of Malaysia kratom or Thailand kratom or Vietnamese kratom, when we know that these strain don’t originate from that region. Very rarely and you have to know somebody that knows somebody that knows somebody to get real Malay, Thai, Vietnam kratom. They could possibly use seed stock or clones from those regions and use chemicals and nutrients to try to duplicate the same growing environment. The age of plantation tree comes into question as well. I’m not so sure many kratom plantations are all that mature. But maybe they are. If someone owns the land mass. They could says it’s plantation. But it’s really wild because it’s growing in the middle of no man’s land. This topic has always been an interest to me and I’ve found very few people that can come close to really explaining it to me. Thanks again for the input.

[IndelibleDotInk]

this is a question for INCENS3/ laurie, she has two companies, one with wild grown kratom and one with plantation. insens3 and gold leaf, i think.

[leafhopper]

It's hard to know for sure with so much smoke and mirrors in this market, but on average so-called wild stuff seems to hit the spot better for me and is closer to memories of kratom before it went mainstream. My fear is that these plantations may be using the same genetics and that's why there's so much bland, dull kratom out there. And maybe the product isn't bad, but even the best chemotypes lost their shine with regular exposure to it. But that's what we're stuck with because that's what the big plantations are pumping out. I hope I'm wrong.

[Greyfeather]

this is a question for INCENS3/ laurie, she has two companies, one with wild grown kratom and one with plantation. insens3 and gold leaf, i think.

How interesting!

This is a fascinating subject, one that I've pondered many times but never asked. Even including "smoke and mirrors," how would you even know which you are getting unless the vendor specifically details that the kratom is 100% wild grown Or plantation grown?

And I recall Gumby mentioning in one of his info-posts that wild-grown kratom doesn't always guarantee a superior product. As far as I know there aren't any other vendors who get as involved in the "growing" side like he does (manipulating growing conditions). Reminds me a bit of the articles I have read about manipulating cannabis strains.

[IndelibleDotInk]

Big tobacco has mj labs founded to replace tobacco once mj is legal; I think they dip their toe into kratom as well.

[mitragy9]

The only thing that kind of concerns me about plantation kratom is that it can take the plant over two years to reach peak alkaloid content. From the plantations I've seen they're just churning out as many harvests as possible not letting it grow anywhere near as long as wild grown kratom, obviously this will vary but you get my point. I really hope someone figures out what stimulates alkaloid content(maybe wet then dry periods of time? summer leaf ect) similar to how people figured out how to grow very potent marijuana plants very quickly in hydroponics. I hope this could eventually become a reality for kratom but I have some pretty major doubts about it.

[Vipercuda69]

I also have the feeling that many plantations are more focused on quantity over quality. It takes several years for a tree to generate an alkaloid content that would be considered acceptable to most kratom consumers. Unless it’s artificially inflated with Extract, I’d think Wild Grown would be more often of better quality. I’d guess wild trees could be 10, 20, 30, etc years old. Plantation tree are much younger. That’s my understanding. I’ve read that some plantations get around this by NOT growing from seed. But instead growing from cuttings off of really mature trees. That this somehow passes on the genetics of a mature tree to what will be plantation trees that are much younger in age, giving them a higher than normal alkaloid content. I have no idea how that works or if it even does work. The Wild vs Plantation dilemma seems to be a rather old one. Thanks again for the feedback.

[TheStanman]

In theory, should plantation leaf improve in the coming years as the trees are more mature?

[Vipercuda69]

In theory, should plantation leaf improve in the coming years as the trees are more mature?

I believe it takes about 3 years to really have the beginnings of a mature alkaloid profile in the leaf. Side by side, with say.... a 10 yr old tree, I’d think there would be a big contrast in alkaloid levels.

Seeing the word “Wild” would seem that the trees could be quite old, but that’s probably not always the case. Likewise, when I see “Plantation”, I assume 3-12 year old trees. But that’s also just an assumption.

[Jfish030]

Genetics of the trees themselves, i think plays the biggest factor. A 20 year old tree could be a weak and a 3 year old tree could be potent. I think after 2-3 years the leafs will be viable for harvest on all trees. I believe in the future coming years plantation kratom will be the best and wild grown will die out due to it becoming more scarce and the plantations trees will be more mature and hopefully they start finding good gene trees too.

[BallzDeep9]

Genetics of the trees themselves, i think plays the biggest factor. A 20 year old tree could be a weak and a 3 year old tree could be potent. I think after 2-3 years the leafs will be viable for harvest on all trees. I believe in the future coming years plantation kratom will be the best and wild grown will die out due to it becoming more scarce ....

Well for sure, at current rate of Export, Plantation will be "the most" but not necessarily the Best? Common sense tells us, top canopy leaves of wild Old Growth trees, mature trees = have the most alkaloids... The fact that they're scarce, compared to the TONS of cheap anonymous bushels being exported these days... Still imo there's a place for Connoisseur Kratom, the gourmet stuff which is limited in quantity, and should sell for a higher $ price. What TFH is doing, is fairly unique & different than other vendors both large and small back-pack guys.

But I agree, wild harvest isn't necessarily always better. FOR one thing... Bunk Leaf coming from natural hybrids, with hirsuta and javanica, that cross pollinate in the wild ? Those species do not contain Mitragyna!! Fact they're trying to sell this "bunk" is proof that Indo's are harvesting the crap, anyway! So proper collection from trees, is important... Time of year? Is the tree in a flowering cycle or not? Much of kratom's potency has to do with time of year... then careful drying & curing process.

I've only been consuming for 4 years, but sure seems like, those who were buying kilos in 2016 and before.. usually $200 and more... seem to mostly agree the quality was better. Why? Because there was almost Zero "plantation" leaf in 2015 - hadn't been invented yet.. that is a statement from vendors, back then, who would know.

[Vipercuda69]

Genetics of the trees themselves, i think plays the biggest factor. A 20 year old tree could be a weak and a 3 year old tree could be potent. I think after 2-3 years the leafs will be viable for harvest on all trees. I believe in the future coming years plantation kratom will be the best and wild grown will die out due to it becoming more scarce ....

Well for sure, at current rate of Export, Plantation will be "the most" but not necessarily the Best? Common sense tells us, top canopy leaves of wild Old Growth trees, mature trees = have the most alkaloids... The fact that they're scarce, compared to the TONS of cheap anonymous bushels being exported these days... Still imo there's a place for Connoisseur Kratom, the gourmet stuff which is limited in quantity, and should sell for a higher $ price. What TFH is doing, is fairly unique & different than other vendors both large and small back-pack guys.

But I agree, wild harvest isn't necessarily always better. FOR one thing... Bunk Leaf coming from natural hybrids, with hirsuta and javanica, that cross pollinate in the wild ? Those species do not contain Mitragyna!! Fact they're trying to sell this "bunk" is proof that Indo's are harvesting the crap, anyway! So proper collection from trees, is important... Time of year? Is the tree in a flowering cycle or not? Much of kratom's potency has to do with time of year... then careful drying & curing process.

I've only been consuming for 4 years, but sure seems like, those who were buying kilos in 2016 and before.. usually $200 and more... seem to mostly agree the quality was better. Why? Because there was almost Zero "plantation" leaf in 2015 - hadn't been invented yet.. that is a statement from vendors, back then, who would know.

Great reply and informative. You mentioned Bunk Leaf and cross pollination. How does this relate to Hirsuta or Javanica? Are you suggesting they are simply inferior quality Mitragyna trees that don’t produce any Mitragynine? Or are Hirsuta and Javanica a different breed of tree with a different alkaloid profile from the Mitragyna Speciosa kratom tree? I was under the impression Hirsuta and Javanica contain some unique alkaloids not found in Kratom, but also they share some common alkaloids. Just no Mitra or 7HM. I use Hirsuta and Javanica for tolerance resets and they seem to work really good. Just using them for a week as a replacement for kratom can almost completely reset my tolerance back to zero(0).

Off topic, but would bunk kratom work just as good for tolerance resets? Like Stem and Vein? Which I’ve personally found to be just low quality kratom. Because I actually have a bunch of bunk kratom laying around from kratom vendors that I tried over the years. It takes a back seat to all the other kratom I have of much higher quality. Like TFH, Lucky’s, Rhino, Fused, Otie’s, Dennete615, etc.

My bunk stash is from the commercialized over-marketed vendors that are often over priced and just average quality, at best. Like Golden Monk, Kraken Kratom, MitraGaia, MitraSpec, Kratom Krates, Hippo, Phytoextractum, Kratora, Coastline, etc. I would add Kat’s to that list as they tend to be higher in price and I haven’t got anything good from them in a year. Mostly zero effects unless feeling extremely nauseous from every strain is an effect.

[pray4peace4]

Every photo I've seen of a kratom plantation, the trees were all about 8 feet tall & the trunks about 6 inches diameter. I wouldn't want kratom from there because those are young trees. A grower with a plantation like that saw my opinion & got angry at me but there's no way those could be old mature trees, & until I see proof otherwise, common sense tells me old mature trees will have a larger concentration of alkaloids. Someone on MM who's a vendor stated that trees have to be 5 years old before there's a significant active ingredient amount in the leaves. Makes sense. If any of y'all know of any proof otherwise, I'd like to know.

[Vipercuda69]

Every photo I've seen of a kratom plantation, the trees were all about 8 feet tall & the trunks about 6 inches diameter. I wouldn't want kratom from there because those are young trees. A grower with a plantation like that saw my opinion & got angry at me but there's no way those could be old mature trees, & until I see proof otherwise, common sense tells me old mature trees will have a larger concentration of alkaloids. Someone on MM who's a vendor stated that trees have to be 5 years old before there's a significant active ingredient amount in the leaves. Makes sense. If any of y'all know of any proof otherwise, I'd like to know.

The plantation pics I’ve seen, and I have not seen many, had a variety of different sized trees. Some were 6-8 feet tall, but others looked considerably taller. 20 feet maybe. But nothing compared to an old wild tree. I’ve seen some wild trees as tall as 1-2 telephone polls. I’m talking giants like a big oak tree tall. Maybe 40-50 feet if I had to guess.

As far as the alkaloids, I’ve seen they start to develop a full alkaloid profile around 3 years and I would be willing to guess that a considerable amount of kratom comes from 3-6 year old trees. What I read about cloning was that you could take a cutting from an old 20-30 year old tree, root it and grow that. Somehow it has the genetics of the older tree, creating a more mature alkaloid profile sooner, speeding up the amount of time that it takes to be harvestable. I can’t confirm that. I can’t recall exactly where I read it either. But that’s what I seem to recall on how the grower can speed up the maturity process of a plantation tree from a mature cutting as opposed to growing from seed.

[pray4peace4]

As a follow-up to my other comment, I found an interesting research paper on kratom. It's in a medical journal named Brain Research, published in early 2016, it covers a multitude of facts about kratom constituents, mostly mitragynine, & it confirmed that older trees' leaves produce considerably more alkaloids than young ones, & they produce more different alkaloids than young ones. Other interesting facts are kratom reduces the acidity of the gastric juices in the stomach, & it impairs contractions of the vas deferens, which may or may not concern you guys out there. It's a pdf file that you'll find by clicking on this(hopefully - I had to enlist my son's help):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... LibDBMuzZU

[Closedeyesearch]

how do alkloidd build in the leaves if they shed there leaving annually?

[Quercus]

how do alkloidd build in the leaves if they shed there leaving annually?

Mitragyna speciosa is an evergreen tree so doesn't shed its leaves like deciduous trees do every year. Most deciduous trees have broad leaves like M. speciosa so I wondered the same thing when I saw my first photo of our botanical friend.

[Greyfeather]

I have been wanting to ask these question ever since I purchased my first ounce of "Wild" kratom:

-What exactly is meant by "wild?" Are there large tracts of land in Indonesia where the older trees grow? Sort of like a jungle?
-Can just anyone go in and start harvesting from these older trees OR does this land belong to someone?
-If it doesn't belong to anyone then surely there is competition amongst harvesters to get in there and get as much as they can Or..
The land is privately owned, and I can only imagine how difficult it would be to acquire that land.
-But, again, if there is no private ownership, my imagination runs a little wild and I picture literal cartels fighting over an acre (or more) of trees because that's where the money is. X number of wild trees vs. infinite groups of people who want to get into the harvesting game. Does one group of harvesters get there first and say "these are OUR tree, back off?"

I mean, I don't know how it works. That's why I'm so curious. But if there are no policies that determine who can harvest these wild trees and who can't, I can only imagine a free-for-all that might even involve some pretty horrendous skulduggery.

[IndelibleDotInk]

Questions for the OGs. May the caretakers of DoubleM grant us such knowledge?