Why is larger dosing bad?

[Timothycd21]

Hi,

So obviously everyone and their brother knows about the whole "less is more for Kratom". I think that applies for a good number of the users but for some this is just not true. Now the reason for my post is I would like to know why people crucify me online for admittedly dosing around 25g a day. I dose ONCE in the am around 10g and then I have a heavier dose for a night cap of 15g. Why is it looked at as so much better/more acceptable for someone to dose 5g 5X a day if at the end of the day it is still 25g? I AM NOT STARTING AN ARGUMENT. I have been doing this dosing for almost 2 years now and it is just perfect for me. My burns are excellent. I understand when people are dosing excessive amounts that is when kratom starts to hinder instead of help you. However, I have zero desire to increase my dosage. If anything I may try to try a month of 3g-5g doses just to cement the fact that I am currently using the correct dosage. Thanks for the insight guys/gals!

[mitragy9]

It's not bad, people around here just have this elitism about kratom use. That if anyone differs from what they do they must be an abusive drug addict using THEIR precious kratom to get high. It's fucking stupid and I've seen it happen to tons of new users here and other places. Kratom is very complex it will never be a simple one size fits all dosage even suboxone(buprenorphine) varies a ton with dosages. While kratom is a partial agonist "opioid" that ceiling effect will be different for everyone. Some people can take really high dosages and still get amazing effects others taking over 5 grams results in no effects and just sickness. It's different for everyone kratom is very dependent on liver metabolism, digestion, and the state of your μ-opioid receptor. Obviously the best way to go about with any potentially addicting substance is to take the smallest amount that results in the best effects for you. This will be the best solution long term however that's going to be vastly different for everyone. Not everyone uses kratom for the same reasons as well for example people in horrific pain compared to someone looking for a energy boost. Just do what works for you.

Also IMO frequency of use is much worse regarding dependence/tolerance issues compared to dosing larger in less frequent dosages. When you dose multiple times a day it's constantly building in your bloodstream and there's a constant attachment to the opioid receptor. This is nearly the same thing as using a much longer acting opioid it will be worse for tolerance and detox long term. It will also result in interdose withdrawal symptoms.

[e_poison]

As a daily user who takes it for chronic pain, I need 5g just to feel any kind of relief in most cases. Unless I've taken a 2-3 day tolerance break, then I can get good effects from 3g.

[Loveandpeace]

"I AM NOT STARTING AN ARGUMENT"

That may be my most favorite shit I've read in awhile. Clearly coming from a guy who has seen one or two arguments spiral. It IS 2020, ya know?!

Anyway, had to chime in. I am a relatively low doser still, so my input doesn't hold much weight here. Do you drink it?

[gepetto33]

Hi,

So obviously everyone and their brother knows about the whole "less is more for Kratom". I think that applies for a good number of the users but for some this is just not true. Now the reason for my post is I would like to know why people crucify me online for admittedly dosing around 25g a day.

I've noticed a lot of people around here hovering around ~20gpd. High dose, low dose, doesn't matter.. just understand the consequences of doing so and accept them. It's when people create threads whining about their WD symptoms, with a vague accusatory tone (like Kratom did this to them, and not the other way around) that i get bothered. Personally, i don't care to have a dependence to something that i can't walk away from quickly and easily. For those that do care about taking breaks it's an easy thing to cycle in and out of taking days off, thus keeping your burns strong and your tolerance low. And if you don't care - well then... just own it. There's nothing worse than complaining and trying to get sympathy from complete strangers.

What always perplexed me is how people can still feel it after dosing so much. I've always felt a ceiling at about 8g, to where 12g, 16g, 20g didn't seem like it would make any difference. It felt like my body was telling me something, so i listened to it.

[mitragy9]

I've noticed a lot of people around here hovering around ~20gpd. High dose, low dose, doesn't matter.. just understand the consequences of doing so and accept them. It's when people create threads whining about their WD symptoms, with a vague accusatory tone (like Kratom did this to them, and not the other way around) that i get bothered. Personally, i don't care to have a dependence to something that i can't walk away from quickly and easily. For those that do care about taking breaks it's an easy thing to cycle in and out of taking days off, thus keeping your burns strong and your tolerance low. And if you don't care - well then... just own it. There's nothing worse than complaining and trying to get sympathy from complete strangers.

What always perplexed me is how people can still feel it after dosing so much. I've always felt a ceiling at about 8g, to where 12g, 16g, 20g didn't seem like it would make any difference. It felt like my body was telling me something, so i listened to it.

It's different for everyone based on body chemistry. I've had friends try my kratom and one of them had to take over 8 grams to feel anything at all. He's never used any opioids before kratom, none at all. This is kratom that was knocking me out at 6 grams and I've abused heroin an pretty much every other opioid under the sun in the past. It really varies all over the place. I've also had friends get super sick and vomit multiple times from 1.5 gram dosages.

[TheStanman]

I agree with mitragy9 that it's an annoying form of elitism. It starts from a nugget of truth - you are better off taking the least gpd that works for you. The problem is that the amount totally varies from person to person. It's when people apply their own optimal dosage to others and do it in a condescending way that it's annoying.

I think people are often chasing a good feeling causing their gpd to increase which is actually counterproductive. That's where the 'less is more' approach is valuable. But it doesn't work for comparing across people.

[Mariospeedragon]

I’m not a dose shamer. I really do my best to place judgement on those that take huge doses of kratom multiple times a day. We all take kratom for a variety of reasons, and thereby are going to be an vast array of dosing size / frequency . That said, when things cross over that 50-60 grams per day, things can get far more complicated for such usage. Guess what I’m poorly articulating is that we as a community need to help educate new users to how to best not get themselves into such troubled situations. Sure some may completely disregard, but such communication may aid that one person from going apeshit with the dosing?? Anyways, take care out there.

[guitartodd77]

I remember first getting started with kratom back in 2012. A neighbor to my Brother-In-Law had introduced me to tea and it was eye opening for pain releif and anxiety. I started ordering my own from places like Kratora, BKB and a few others (still have some it) but couldn't seem to replicate the results. This lead me to consuming 10+ grams per serving once per day for a while just to get some releif. At times I believe I was going as high as 20g broken out accross a couple of hours trying to get releif. I didnt know any better and just needed something to help with pain, depression and anxiety. I eventually found some quality vendors that allowed me to gain more control over my regiment. Over time, I found some favorites from Canopy, Socal and Herbal Research and my serving size slowly started dropping. The higher the quality, the lower the serving size needed but I was was still around 8-10 grams once or twice a day.

It's when I started taking tolerance breaks that I noticed my serving sizes begin to drop. After a 2 month break, my serving size dropped to 6 to 8 grams per serving and I was getting better results (which I believed at the time it was due to better quality. Now I'm not exactly sure). Another extended break later dropped my avg serving to 6g at a time. Eventually, I had naturally dropped my serving sizes down to 2g to 4gs at a time and the effects are just as potent as they ever were before (perhaps stronger now).

All this to ask, has anyone else noticed that over the course of years and taking tolerance breaks one or twice a year seem to naturally lower the effective minimum serving size? I have some very early Plantation Maeng Da this still hits hard but now only at 3gs where my early notes show having to go up to 8+ grams per serving 5 years ago. Such a strange suppliment. But i also believe the experience leads us to find and maintain smaller serving sizes over time chasing a very specific effect.

BTW... I still have couple of old, weak batches from Mitragaia and Canooy that barely do anything at 10gs. It may just be a quality thing but I'm not exactly sure.

[LeafersonJr32]

It's different for everyone based on body chemistry. I've had friends try my kratom and one of them had to take over 8 grams to feel anything at all. He's never used any opioids before kratom, none at all. This is kratom that was knocking me out at 6 grams and I've abused heroin an pretty much every other opioid under the sun in the past. It really varies all over the place. I've also had friends get super sick and vomit multiple times from 1.5 gram dosages.

This is my exact experience too some people get sick and throw up on 2 grams and some can take 8 grams just to start feeling something from kratom that have never used it or opioids before. Honestly when i first started taking kratom i couldnt feel anything under 7 grams whatsoever, but i was coming off of a serious oxycodone habit. Whatever works for you man, i took 3 ten gram doses a day for 2 years straight and it worked well for me. Now i take 3 seven gram doses a day simply because for some reason now i guess after a few years clean from opiates my brain has healed atleast a little bit and i feel more comfortable with the 7 gram doses now. As long as you still are having great burns without negative side effects i say do you man. I hate to see dose shaming, because everyone is so much different no one can say how much is right for someone else to take just like with anything(suboxone as mitragynine referred to) else for that matter. We all have different brain chemistry.

[zachdank]

Larger dosing is NOT bad. It's a buncha bullshit propaganda a few members on MM try and shove down people's throat as fact. Somebody already nailed it here as elitist horseshit.
I know a lot of great healthy, happy, bad ass peeps that dose anywhere from 2.5g up to 7g any where between 1 - 3 times a day.
Kratom is a beautiful natural alternative to the epidemic killing hundreds of thousands of good people every year. Don't be fooled by some loud mouth over opinionated ass clowns telling you how much you're aloud to dose if you wanna be part of their cool club.
They're a buncha fuckin losers dose shaming people that are chosing a natural plant over having to possibly take Narcan.
Take whatever dose you feel is appropriate for your health and your life. Best advice I've ever heard on Double M is
"Respect the plant and it'll respect you"
Let those fools get down with their " I'm finally down to a single 1/2 gram dose daily and it's AMAZING! "
LMAO

[Playerpiano72]

Geez Zach, you are one uncouth person. Breathe. Relax.

As someone above said, higher dosages are needed for pain relief. I also don't think higher dosing is bad, but there is a culture of shaming people that do, and it makes most people not want to reveal their true dosages and schedule. If I could do with 2-3 gram amounts I would, it would save money, but it does not work that way for me. A kratom habit, even a big one, is way cheaper, more manageable, and less detrimental (to you and everyone around you) than any true drug habit you could have. If you see dose shaming, call it out. No one needs to be making others feel uncomfortable to share here, it impairs real discussion and makes lurkers and new members hesitant to post. Leave the kratom fascism to the other kratom forums that like to engage in censorship.

[BallzDeep9]

I also don't think higher dosing is bad, but there is a culture of shaming people that do, ....

A culture? I don't recall hearing a single "shame on you" comment here?

I have a dear friend who is an alcoholic. When he's drinking he belts down a Fifth of vodka per day. Every day. . Fortunately does not drive. His vodka intake comes through the pores of his skin, so he smells like vomit.. drinks to the point of passing out. Every single day. Somehow after months of this he gets it together, switches to beer, and is able to recover... Nobody says "shame on you" for drinking enough to kill a normal person. He's got a mental illness.

There is definitely a culture of drug abuse in general, well known in our society... many have now discovered kratom! They get frustrated that kratom HAS a known ceiling effect - you can't get really fucked up on kratom (what some are seeking?), its definitely not heroin... Taking more & more at some point only gives more side effects/ less good effects. So feeling withdrawals, super tired, wasted, night sweats, low T for men, hair falling out... those are known side effects of kratom abuse. To most of us, yeah that's "bad" but for some others, maybe it's all relative compared to hard opiate abuse, not as bad? For most of us, that's just stupid... but important not to judge the person, it's their activity that may become a problem.

Kratom is NOT a "drug", So its bad for ALL of us, when those people start advocating to BAN kratom. because of their personal problem. Reddit r/quitting is full of those folks. They have testified in State Court in favor of banning kratom - Again, people have a chronic, compulsive disorder to abuse substances... Lots of psychology here. So nobody can offer a helpful suggestion "Maybe you should try a Lower Dose" ?? Or the person gets all defensive, how dare you criticize my obvious excess, I have a right to do whatever I want, etc etc.

[mitragy9]

A culture? I don't recall hearing a single "shame on you" comment here?

I have a dear friend who is an alcoholic. When he's drinking he belts down a Fifth of vodka per day. Every day. . Fortunately does not drive. His vodka intake comes through the pores of his skin, so he smells like vomit.. drinks to the point of passing out. Every single day. Somehow after months of this he gets it together, switches to beer, and is able to recover... Nobody says "shame on you" for drinking enough to kill a normal person. He's got a mental illness.

There is definitely a culture of drug abuse in general, well known in our society... many have now discovered kratom! They get frustrated that kratom HAS a known ceiling effect - you can't get really fucked up on kratom (what some are seeking?), its definitely not heroin... Taking more & more at some point only gives more side effects/ less good effects. So feeling withdrawals, super tired, wasted, night sweats, low T for men, hair falling out... those are known side effects of kratom abuse. To most of us, yeah that's "bad" but for some others, maybe it's all relative compared to hard opiate abuse, not as bad? For most of us, that's just stupid... but important not to judge the person, it's their activity that may become a problem.

Kratom is NOT a "drug", So its bad for ALL of us, when those people start advocating to BAN kratom. because of their personal problem. Reddit r/quitting is full of those folks. They have testified in State Court in favor of banning kratom - Again, people have a chronic, compulsive disorder to abuse substances... Lots of psychology here. So nobody can offer a helpful suggestion "Maybe you should try a Lower Dose" ?? Or the person gets all defensive, how dare you criticize my obvious excess, I have a right to do whatever I want, etc etc.

lmfao you specifically called people abusive drug addicts that just take kratom to get high for taking doses higher than yourself bro. "doper crowd" is another term you like to use soo very much. I've seen you constantly say shit like this to new users of the site and I'm by far not the only one to notice.


just one of many examples:
viewtopic.php?p=64660#p64660

[BallzDeep9]

lmfao you specifically called people abusive drug addicts that just take kratom to get high for taking doses higher than yourself bro. "doper crowd" is another term you like to use soo very much. I've seen you constantly say shit like this to new users of the site and I'm by far not the only one to notice.

dude you're now picking fights with individuals, we are talking in general terms about large doses/ abusing kratom etc. You're still sore about my comment on another thread, OK, go ahead and Reply to that thread it's not locked lol .. that was a discussion about ppl getting irritable when taking too much kratom? Seems like you're still irritable my man?

Again I don't see anyone "shaming" here I've never used the word? We know absolutely, that ppl get in trouble abusing kratom, is anyone arguing with that observation? Check out the r/quitting sub where these 40 gpd abusers hang out & blame all their problems on kratom... IMO the abuse is rampant. Generally speaking... But as I posted, some folks have higher tolerance, my friend drinks a Fifth of booze per day. The original OP here, takes 25 gpd ?? OK maybe that works for him? He's not complaining about kratom - Others who come here, complain about kratom not working, seem to be using too much... So our suggestion IS: Maybe use Less? Is there anything wrong with that? Or is that "socialism" and you're really irritated about Dirty Dump losing the Election? Just a guess!!

[mitragy9]

dude you're now picking fights with individuals, we are talking in general terms about large doses/ abusing kratom etc. You're still sore about my comment on another thread, OK, go ahead and Reply to that thread it's not locked lol .. that was a discussion about ppl getting irritable when taking too much kratom? Seems like you're still irritable my man?

Again I don't see anyone "shaming" here I've never used the word? We know absolutely, that ppl get in trouble abusing kratom, is anyone arguing with that observation? Check out the r/quitting sub where these 40 gpd abusers hang out & blame all their problems on kratom... IMO the abuse is rampant. Generally speaking... But as I posted, some folks have higher tolerance, my friend drinks a Fifth of booze per day. The original OP here, takes 25 gpd ?? OK maybe that works for him? He's not complaining about kratom - Others who come here, complain about kratom not working, seem to be using too much... So our suggestion IS: Maybe use Less? Is there anything wrong with that? Or is that "socialism" and you're really irritated about Dirty Dump losing the Election? Just a guess!!

What does you calling others drug addicts because they take more kratom then you approve have to do with the election? lmao do you seriously make everything political and about drumpf? I don't know why I even bother to correct the misinformation you constantly post. Like kratom not being a drug(lmao) or kratom not being an opioid. If that's really the case how can it be so easily abused in your mind? How can it cause physical withdrawal symptoms and detox if it's truly not a drug or an "opioid?" How can it cause such potent agonism and have such a high affinity for μ-opioid receptor that it blocks other more dangerous opioids if it is indeed not an "opioid?" This is obviously a waste of time as you probably won't even read this so I'm just going to stop wasting my time correcting potentially dangerous misinformation here it's just not worth it and it's fucking up threads.

[Playerpiano72]

You don't have to use the word "shame" to be shaming someone.

And say what you want, but kratom is psychoactive, and therefore a drug. It's just in a different class of drugs, like caffeine. Antipsychotic or analgesics (ibuprofen) are also drugs,.but you wouldn't put them in the same category as meth or heroin. Maybe you don't want other people demonizing kratom because "drug" has negative connotations, and I sympathize, but that's everyone else's problem. Not calling it a drug is disingenuous, I think.

[Supersonic75]

This is really getting tedious, personal, and pointless. I’d love to see this thread end. It’s Kratom for god’s sake, not solving the problems of the world. People need to do what they need to do. Peace.

[Playerpiano72]

This is really getting tedious, personal, and pointless. I’d love to see this thread end. It’s Kratom for god’s sake, not solving the problems of the world. People need to do what they need to do. Peace.

It's a discussion, that's what we're all here for right? You can always just opt out. It's no more or less pointless than any other thread here. Tedious and personal, yes, by the nature of OP's question. But so what
No one's trying to "solve the problems of the world," that's incredibly hyperbolic. I think everyone has made some good points worthy of response, and encouraging civil discourse shouldn't be frowned upon.

[mitragy9]

It's a discussion, that's what we're all here for right? You can always just opt out. It's no more or less pointless than any other thread here. Tedious and personal, yes, by the nature of OP's question. But so what
No one's trying to "solve the problems of the world," that's incredibly hyperbolic. I think everyone has made some good points worthy of response, and encouraging civil discourse shouldn't be frowned upon.

Eh, I wouldn't say this was very civil which I am at fault for but I just hate seeing blatant misinformation being posted as gospel here that could potentially endanger new users who don't know any better. Imo it puts kratom's entire legality at risk. It's also very annoying to have my political standing and beliefs be brought up anytime I happen to disagree with this guy's (IMO) false statements.

[Playerpiano72]

Oh ok. I just skimmed it and didn't really pay attention to the personal attacks. This is just one of those divisive issues I guess. We can always get this back on track, because I think it's a worthwhile topic. OP clearly stated he wasn't starting an argument after all, heh. In general I agree with supersonic75; it is just kratom and people should do what they want (with some caveats, don't try snorting or boofing of it pls). But let's not stifle what could be a good thread.

Personally, I took 7 grams this evening (fight me lol). It works for me and what I want to use it for (mood lift and pain). I don't consider it to be an abuse. I can maintain it and it isn't harming anything. I've tried taking smallish doses and it just doesn't provide the effects i seek. Is it really any different than drinking a few extra cups of coffee? I mean, by the argument that it's not a drug, how is taking larger amounts of it abusive? Not calling anyone out, I just like to hear other people's opinions on what all of us here have in common: kratom. I definitely don't think anyone should be afraid to post their true personal experiences, odds are there are many more people that do the same exact thing. Those that can take 1-3 gram amounts, good on you. For me less isn't more, more is more. If you need to take 8 grams several times a day to get your pain or whatever under control, don't be ashamed and don't let people tell you you are "doing it wrong." Although on the other hand, kratom does have a ceiling effect, and taking something like 50+ grams a day may not be necessary. But even then it's still more favorable than having a detrimental, non-maintainable drug problem. When it starts to negatively impact your life and those around you, that is when it's appropriate to draw that line.
/Long winded opinion

[Babel-17]

Anyone care for some levity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k

[zachdank]

Eh, I wouldn't say this was very civil which I am at fault for but I just hate seeing blatant misinformation being posted as gospel here that could potentially endanger new users who don't know any better. Imo it puts kratom's entire legality at risk. It's also very annoying to have my political standing and beliefs be brought up anytime I happen to disagree with this guy's (IMO) false statements.

From Mewe to reddit to Double m that old fool is literally made himself infamous in the Kratom community. I see daily ongoing jokes on his behalf for spewing false information and trying to put himself off as elite compared to anybody that doesn't follow his own personal dosing regimen of 1g a day that is supposedly the ONLY way to use the Kratom plant unless you're a doped up junkie loser. Facts are facts my dude. You can find endless posts of him running off new members to double m because he felt they worded their question wrong.
Glad I'm not the only one who stops by and checks that blatant nonsense. I have a pm box full of "thank yous" and "jeez what's that Ballz guy problem"
It's like he's his own and only biggest fan and still doesn't realize it.

[gumbyke1]

I want to preface by saying I am not a medical professional or qualified in any way to advise on anyone's personal kratom consumption. With that said, Ill be happy to give my personal non-professional opinions.

Everyone is different...period. I always suggest folks consume the lowest possible amount that is effective for you for long-term success. Now how much that is can vary greatly per individual, and it can also change over time. For new consumers (which I know you are not) I suggest starting as low as possible (.5-1gram) and work your way up in .25 -.5g increments until you find that it's working for you.

If you want to experiment with taking lower amounts, you likely need to commit to sticking with it to have success. A lot of folks try jumping from something like 8g's to 4gs after being inspired by a "less is more post" and then after one try, they quit because it didnt work for them. While I have seen a dramatic lowering of serving size at one-time work well for some, I find that it's not the norm for most people. I think the "less is more" testimonials are inspiring to some, but I also think they can set up some very unrealistic expectations if the reader thinks that just shaving a few grams of their serving size is going to amaze them. As I said before, I do find kratom much more effective as lower servings, but it often takes some work to get there if you regularly using a large serving size.

Slashing a high serving size is certainly worth experimenting with, but dont quit trying if you try it once and it doesn't work (as I said before I find this usually does NOT work). IMO the ideal way to do it is dropping .5g every 3-4 days. Usually, 3 days is long enough for your body's chemistry to adjust, giving you a good read on how effective it is. The goal is to get to the lowest possible serving size that is still effective, and if you consume kratom regularly it's a very worthy goal!

[Supersonic75]

Totally solid advice; thanks, Gumby.

And I really didn't mean to come off as wanting to shut anyone's opinions down - that's not at all my place or my style - but it felt like aspects of it were just getting a little nasty. I'm all for discourse and I really learn a lot at MM. This site is one of my favorite places to just read some interesting/funny/cool stuff about a leaf that I find incredibly helpful on so many levels, and for me, respecting each other is really important, 'cause I guess we're all here for related yet unique reasons. At any rate, no offense whatsoever intended and appreciate the comments.

[BallzDeep9]

.... it felt like aspects of it were just getting a little nasty. I'm all for discourse and I really learn a lot at MM. This site is one of my favorite places to just read some interesting/ funny/ cool stuff about a leaf that I find incredibly helpful on so many levels, and for me, respecting each other is really important, 'cause I guess we're a l here for related yet unique reasons.

Well said. Now for some comic relief... and for those who were nasty or irritable due to over dosing? and for the original OP (where did he go?) I present... Joe from kratom vendor ReLeaf. Hey, A guy named Joe is President elect! I don't always agree with Joe, but he does present some interesting things - Lately he's doing his take on Reddit topics. The subject of "Large Dose" frequently comes up on Reddit. How much is Too Much? Three ounces per Serving? This is a YouTube video:

A Kratom Freak! 84 Grams Ingested Every Serving?

[mitragy9]

Wow a guy with obvious substance abuse problems how hilarious.....

[Playerpiano72]

I thought that video was going to show a guy taking 17 tablespoons of kratom. It's just some dude reading a reddit thread.