Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

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edenoasis wrote:... have gathered lots of great info from the user Theanine (who effin rocks!)

• Taper my use so it is only once in the AM and once in the PM. I’ve been in the bad habit of round the clock use, usually using 1/2 a tsp every 2 hours.

• Use tolerance reduction supplements: 1) I’ve ordered the cats claw from Amazon Theanine recommended. I’m planning to order Palmitoylethanolamide as well. I’m considering adding agamite too if necessary but will only do so after testing the former supplements mentioned.

Great topic, Tolerance should be #1 discussion on any Kratom Forum, after new vendor spam of course! . Lots of good questions.

whatever happened to that Theanine fellow? Was on MeWe a year ago? Then who knows? People come and go... He wrote a bunch of stuff here, then disappeared or? Maybe some of his ideas, were better than others? We can't all be right all the time... too much about Kratom, is unknown or hasn't been studied yet. So we're going off anecdotes, best guess estimates - In that case, my suggestion would be: Use a consensus - Take what seems to work, for a large # of people. Look for agreement, support, and confirmation, of any 1 person's theory.

In the case of Tolerance reduction supplements, there IS research on the Internet... A few professional studies, and many anecdotes from kratom folks, also other cases of Tolerance to nootropics, drugs, opioids, etc. My own impression, having studied this a bit - the top 3 supplements used to combat tolerance, are: #1- Agmatine Sulfate, 2- Memantine, 3- Ultra Low Dose Naltrexone, aka ULDN. All three of those have much discussion on Reddit, the knowledge base of kratom and supplements in general.

1 person came here with a theory, on a rather new substance Palmitoylethanolamide. A Reddit Search has lots of recent threads on this substance, it's anti inflammatory, it's useful for pain relief, it's even helpful for COVID? However.... nobody's talking about this as a Tolerance reducer? Do same Search on "Agmatine Sulfate". You'll find years of discussion on r/kratom and r/nootropics - No comparison to the amount and depth of research, on these two.

Not knocking what Theanine wrote, here on MM, but many others have ALSO written for years on Tolerance reduction, with studies to back up their research... Cats Claw you want the Chinese version considered more effective... DLPA, is a Tyrosine precursor, again there's tons of talk on Reddit, but imo it's not directly that useful for kratom? In terms of Sleep Aids: Gabapentin is one of the best tools, kratom folks should have in their toolbox... Completely fixes RLS associated with kratom withdrawals.

Hopefuly we'll get some more opinions here! Thanks for posting.

You said any advice? Did you try the herbal way, Chamomiles, lemon Balm and Lemon grass, combine all 3 and it puts me to sleep real fast. I think lemon balm or even chamomiles alone can do the trick. In your case i would just make a strong batch, not a tiny bit when i put herbs in pot. But if make it a regular routine, after a week you will notice a big change. Introduce it to your body and keep at it. You can get 1 pound of chamomiles organic from Egypt https://www.amazon.com/Starwest-Botanic ... 230&sr=8-1 , this will last you a long time for 25 and under is not much. I tried German chamomiles and other area's, in my experience i found Egypt one smells the best and more potent and more effective. Lemon Balm, https://www.amazon.com/Starwest-Botanic ... 246&sr=8-2 . these two alone never failed me. Just start sipping the tea 1 hour before going to bed. From this combo, if i am tired, nothing will stop me from crashing the bed. I tried other herbs but Chamomiles and lemon balm my go to these days.

But regarding Kratom. Always push your self to the limit before dose when you want to reduce grams per day or just in general. Use over the counter meds or keep at drinking all kinds of herbal tea's, they all help. Sometimes i never even feel any WD, even after 3 days break from kratom. What ever you have, Peppermint leaf, even green tea will help. Sure some help more then other but never mind that and just change different tea every 2 hour or so, i mean you could drink peppermint all day but i rather have variety that way i know different tea works different parts of body and focus to make it better. You could even drink chamomiles and lemon balm during day just dont make it to strong or you will have to lay down for a nap. But if have too, take kratom if WD is to much, and start again pushing your limits not taking kratom. The more hours you go with out kratom the more you will drop your tolerance.

I've taken all the supplements you mentioned, and more, and I think they can help. I stopped taking Cat's Claw because some of what's in it is also in Hirsuta, which I take. Dr. Atkins, of The Atkins Diet fame, mused that Cat's Claw, Uncaria Tomentosa, was thought by some to be as close to a herbal panacea as exists in the plant kingdom.

The NOW brand version got so popular that some sellers upped their prices a lot, but I found one at Amazon that still sells it at a bargain (as I post this), compared to what other companies charge for their version.

https://smile.amazon.com/NOW-Supplement ... B001B4LN9Q

There's a close relative to Uncaria Tomentosa that's also called Cat's Claw, so be careful if shopping around as it lacks an important alkaloid, isopterodine, an immune stimulant. That, Rhynchophylline, and Mitraphylline, are in both Kratom and Cat's Claw.

Melatonin at night might help with sleep.

Other stuff worth looking into imo are Passion Flower extract, Skullcap extract, Magnolia Bark extract, Incarvillea Sinensis, Corydalis Yanhusuo, Valerian Root extract, and Lemon Balm extract.

To save money I usually buy the powder, not the capsules, and in large bags. Bulk Supplements has some of the above, In Sense Botanicals, and a few other Kratom vendors, sell some of the above, and more stuff I've never tried.

DLPA works with pain, but can also boost energy and mood, so it might (or might not) be something to take away from bedtime.

Ooh, I nearly forgot, Ginger Root extract, at around two grams a serving, is something I take, and which I buy by the half kilo, so it's not expensive. It's been considered by many for centuries to be a tonic for health, and now we have this.

Ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) prevents the development of morphine analgesic tolerance and physical dependence in rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22472107/

I've taken all the above mentioned supplements, and they do provide some help. But at the end of the day, there's no substitute for doing the hard work.....limiting your daily doses and limiting your GPD. I take kratom only twice a day @ 3 to 4g and I still have to take occasional breaks.

OP, taking kraton every two hours was not the best course of action. Losing the kratom love was inevitable.

Yeah, I'll second what Rum Runner said, some of those supplements may make your dose hit pretty hard when you do em every now and then but at the end of the day kratom is a very jealous supplement.. too many supplements daily can render many a lackluster burn imo.. there is a testament to the fact that it is very forgiving tolerance wise, I have been using/abusing kratom for 3 years with doses all over the map and still get great burns, my best advice is to keep your doses as far apart as possible..

CatfatherB wrote:my best advice is to keep your doses as far apart as possible..

I try to, but my apartment is pretty small. <badum tsh>

edenoasis wrote: It worked LIKE A CHARM putting me to sleep... for about a year and then the effects fizzled out. I want the amazing, life changing sleep properties to work again .... The one caveat is I want my dose before bed to be the strongest, since sleep is my goal.

• To keep the sleep properties, do I need to take, say, 2 nights or so OFF the kratom a week?

I want to address OP's concern here - Kratom as a "Sleep Aid"

Let's start with 1 thing, everyone agrees on... Low dose of kratom = Energy, mood lift, euphoria. High dose = Sedation, and sleep. So... think about that. You don't want Energy? No... you want to sleep. So you're forced to take high doses, which defeats the purpose/ leads to Tolerance. The Higher the dose = the more side effects, addiction, and tolerance problems.

What I'm saying is - Kratom is not really a Sleep Aid ?? . Honestly, I think maybe you're barking up the wrong tree? Getting tired sedated and sleepy, IS a "Side Effect" of too much kratom! Now... Pain Relief is another subject. People with chronic pain, use Kratom to function normally during the day, and to sleep well at night. So, depends how much pain we're talking about here. Those who are bed ridden with terminal cancer, yeah, they only want sleep.

But I think MOST people with... back pain, or Fibromyalgia for example - want to function during the day. They want pain relief, being able to work, being active and feeling good... Not feeling tired, sedated, and sleepy all day. So the optimal serving of Kratom... Is LED: Lowest Effective Dose, for helping pain while still having good energy and, a little euphoria maybe?

Sleep is your Goal? I'd start with.... Melatonin. Google that for news, Melatonin may combat COVID! Just saw that on news... #2 would be, Valerian Root. Have you tried herbal sleep aids ?? They usually contain Valerian. Makes you very very sleepy... #3 would be: Gabapentin. That stuff helps sleep, is Rx but considered non narcotic. Get some Gabapentin! Also blocks RLS, so every kratom user should have some... #4 CBD. Try a quality CBD supplement! Does not get you high, but real CBD does relieve pain & is super relaxing... and sleepy. #5 would be, Magnesium L-Threonate. Yes. This form of Mag, is best taken at night. Why? Because... it's a sleep aid.

So there's FIVE sleep aids, take 1 or try all five, or try combinations. IMO those work better than taking "high doses" of Kratom, since abusing kratom in high doses does not really work ?? Tolerance blocks it after your first month.

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Whoa Kratom actually helps someone to fall asleep?! It’s the opposite with me despite the dose. If I take any more than 1-2 grams of Kratom later than 9 pm I don’t fall asleep until 1-2 am. No good

The only time where Kratom seems to help is if I wake up in the middle of the night. I’ll take 1 gram of a red strain and most of the time will fall back to sleep . I don’t know why this doesn’t work at other times though

I’ve tried all of the otc sleep remedies and none have worked . I’ve tried numerous prescription sleep meds and seroquel worked amazing for about 8-9 months and there was no noticeable hangover the next morning! It pooped out though and no matter the dosage, it never worked again. Mirtaxapine at a 7.5 mg dosage knocked me out into a dream sleep for 7-8 hours. Problem is, the next morning I was a zombie for 2-3 hours and it caused weight gain so I had to get off

Insomnia is terrible

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