Extraction Discussion

[yungleaner]

Hi, I was hoping to have some conversation with others on this forum that have experience with kratom extraction. I have made countless batches of "basic" kratom etract using citric acid or lime/lemon juice, as well as 99% ethanol/isopropyl...I have used heat, and I have done it without heat.

This works every time, but the "diamond" (sparkly brown/black) extract it creates, at an efficiency yield between 4:1 and 10:1, is simply unsatisfying in its effects when compared to the strong extracts offered by Herbal-RVA (more recently), or MoBotanicals...The extract I make looks just like this stuff: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Multiso ... _of_Kratom

There are some instructions online for A/B extractions. They are a little over my head, but I'm sure if I spent the amount of time needed preparing, and purchasing the necessary solvents/safety gear, I could pull it off. But it's not worth doing unless the end result is actually near the level of the previously mentioned "premium" extracts.

Are all producers of "premium" extract doing highly complex fractional distillation, like - true laboratory equipment, post-grad level chemistry work? Are there only two basic levels of extract - the "diamond" extract that isn't so popular (and not so strong either, with limited improvement in euphoria or other positive effeccts), and the "premium" extracts that feel very strong?

I guess I'll end this by recommending the extract-blend capsules from Herbal-RVA. I take 4 grams of kratom nightly - 2 grams + 1 of those capsules was an incredibly effective dose. Very stimulating.

Are there any other homebrew extract-makers here? If anyone wants advice or help making the basic "diamond" extract, I can help you do it easily. It's not hard at all.

[yungleaner]

I guess I'll reply to my own thread here...

Has anyone on this forum used the following A/B method? If so, would you say the results were worth it?

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default. ... ts&t=18083

I'm a hobbyist, so maximizing yield isn't so important to me...I just find this interesting and like I said, have been doing low-end extracting for many years now...

[BallzDeep9]

... simply unsatisfying in its effects when compared to the strong extracts offered by Herbal-RVA (more recently), or MoBotanicals...

Great Topic, thanks for starting it... Welcome to MM. Yes I'd agree, the "MoBo" Pure Alkaloids type extract seems to be, Best on the market!!

Curious, how long, or how many times, have you done both Herbal RVA, and Mo Botanicals ? So your opinion is, the RVA product is comparable ? Very interesting... Yes I'm a fan of RVA's but haven't ordered MoBo in years - was just looking at their website recently - Still around $35 for 1 Gram. A serving = a Tenth of a gram. They also have pre-mixed caps, 20% or 30% level, Cost for the Caps is similar.

IMO anyone with a supply of average kratom, try this combo Extract "Recipe" - I'm not writing out the full Recipe here, anyone considering this should decide ON a Recipe and gather all needed materials and commit to the Time involved. Thanks for posting that psychonaut Wiki page. A Search on Reddit r/kratom also has many tek's written out.... there's a bunch of Recipe's floating around.

The Recipe I have used, did the water based (Heat +Citric Acid +Acetic ACV), separate from the Ethanol - then combine the two, a Final step before drying. AND with controlling the pH value... w/ Baking Soda and not allowing alkaloids to sit very long in acid. Even Citric Acid, can degrade Mitragyna over time... I've seen recipe's call for steeping your kratom in acid bath for days, or weeks ?? Bad idea - that would certainly degrade the Mitra. You need to monitor pH! The water & Acid part work their magic quickly, like 1+ hour... it's the Ethanol part, where you can store for a week.

But! I'm certainly NO expert or Chemist. I collected a bunch of recipe's together from various sources. On Reddit find A/B tek's and even a Shulgin's tek for kratom if that rings a bell for anyone... personally I have no interest in messing around w/ Toluene or, building a Meth Lab in my kitchen!

For anyone reading this - Try Herbal RVA extract caps, 3 for $10... A dose is one HALF cap for most people. Take a HALF cap, mixed with HALF or less, your regular serving of plain powder Kratom. BOOM!

[yungleaner]

Hey I remember your username from the good 'ol days on reddit. Mine was u/ggghhhhhh lol. I'm sure we had some good convos there in the past before the reddit rules fucked it all up...

The Herbal RVA caps are a blend, I forget how much extract is in them. And it's been a long time since I had anything from MoBo. So sad to hear of his passing...but they still appear to be operating? Did he pass on the business to someone else?

It's hard for me to compare extract effects. More or less this is how I feel:

There is mediocre "diamond" extract that I can make, others have made, even indo suppliers have made. It improves the effects of kratom mildly, sometimes more intensely, but for lack of a better phrase it lacks the "warm and fuzzy" / euphoric element that marks a great extract.

The Herbal RVA extract caps are absolutely on the level of top shelf extracts. They are EXTREMELY stimulating - I normally take 4g of capsuled kratom, and I took 2g + one of the RVA extract caps at around 9pm and was buzzing until I fell asleep after 2am. They felt similar to MoBo, OPMS, and other great extracts I have tried - there was a guy around briefly called "Dream Kratom" who sold some insane extract too. Although those were so insane that I still wonder if they were spiked with some sort of opioid RC...who knows.

In my experience, acid doesn't actually destroy alkaloids, nor does higher heat. I think the kratom alkaloids are quite resistant. I think my best yields have always come from starting the process as if I were making a kratom tea - and simmering acid (lemon juice or pure citric) with the kratom water for hours on end until it reaches a beautiful golden-yellow color...and then doing the straining and evap/scrape process.

But I am really interested in learning the A/B tek I posted. I'm a little nervous about playing around with real chemicals, but if you look at the steps it's a fairly simple process...

[BallzDeep9]

hey man, I recall ya from Reddit the good ole days haha... Everyone, listen to this guy on extract stuff!

Here's a very COOL science link on Mitragyna: Molecules-20-04915-4927 (paper) -- https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/20/3/4915/htm

Quote: "With regards to stability, mitragynine is stable at pH 7 and 9 for a period of 24 h. However, at pH 4 it appears to degrade over time and there is a high possibility the drug is degradable in gastric juice."

[Jking]

Best way to make a extract like opms is to use 80 proof or higher alcohol to make a tincture. It’s important to not use isopropyl alcohol only food grade. Next get a glass jar fill it with 100 grams of kratom then add about half a liter of the alcohol. Using citric acid, or lemons to bring the ph down to about 5; you can check this with ph strips. Shake it up, and let sit for a week. You can leave longer up to a month if you prefer. You need to strain the mixture using a strainer like a nut bag, or similar. Evaporate half than put the rest of the liquid in tincture bottles. This will create a strong full spectrum extract.

[yungleaner]

@Jking I have used this method before - I find the results a little disappointing compared to OPMS or other strong extracts.

I will be using this extraction method soon: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default. ... ts&t=18083

I will take pics and hopefully write up some instructions as a resource for people.

[Jking]

Wow yunglearner that is an amazing tek. I never found one like it I think your on to something amazing that extract looked great. I wonder how much mit is in it. I might try this already have ph up, and most other supplies. I’m really glad you shared it thanks. Also maybe try all natural artisans emerald extract it’s the best one I’ve found, and the price is not bad in my opinion.

[BallzDeep9]

I will be using this extraction method soon:

Thanks for the Link - First thing I see is: 12/25/2010 - Date is over 10 years old. I'd like to think we've come a long way, baby, in recent years?

Second thing I see is: the word Toluene. Boom, fuck that... That's disqualifying for me... May be a valid A/B extract chemistry from 10 years ago ? BUT - I'm not looking to build a Meth Lab in my kitchen using Toluene or any other super dangerous chemicals. That's fucked up.

[BallzDeep9]

Wow yunglearner that is an amazing tek. I never found one like it .... Also maybe try All Natural Artisans emerald extract

Agree on ANA. Not maybe, definitely! Try some All Natural Artisan extract. ANA knows his kratom... // Sorry but I disagree on that tek. It's old, outdated, A/B stuff that most people here should not attempt... Crap on the Internet stays up forever - but its not allways good!! - Edit: This IS actually a decent tutorial, lots of photos... BUT

For anyone considering an A/B Extract tek - Here's a Reddit Search: https://old.reddit.com/r/kratom/search? ... over_18=on

Weird. I see LOTS of posts about "I'm going to try This". But... seems like they never post Results ? What does that tell you.

[Jking]

Personally if I can make it, or create something better than what’s being sold I do it. Sadly I haven’t found a way to make kratom extract that’s worth it. That’s why this tek interest me but I get what your saying about the safety thing, and this is still a ways away from being worth doing it; still I like gaining knowledge from trying things. I’ve pretty much given on making extracts when you suggested I try all natural artisans in a post I made because I haven’t found any extracts as good as theirs. I also never made anything close to their quality. They have prices so good I’m not sure it’s even worth making kratom extract at this point. They tell you how much active ingredient is in their extracts plus their emerald extract is a wonderful full spectrum extract that made me feel like I wasted money on every extract I bought before it including Carolina kratom which has good extracts but are more expensive, and not as good in my opinion.

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

In all honesty, I make extract to rid myself of powder that I would not otherwise finish. Stuff that didn’t end up giving the effects I desire after multiple tries and tweaking. I have never purchased extract from anywhere else, so I have nothing to compare my own to….but I’m absolutely sure that it is beyond subpar .

I either enhance powder that I do use on a normal basis, or plop a ball of the more resiny stuff in my afternoon coffee. I found an absolutely basic recipe using just water and vinegar and/or lemon juice. We have an oven-type air fryer that I use for the drying process.

Including the overnight freezing, I can have a batch made in about 24 hours.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Kratom_ ... action_tek

My only complaint is the inability to get 100% of the extraction to harden during the drying process. You are going to end up with some really gummy spots. Then you have to actually chisel the hardened extract out of the container, and stuff ends up flying everywhere. Results in a bit of waste.

But all in all, it ends up repurposing “useless” powder. And I’ve been satisfied with it.

[acct55]

Does anyone know how Herbal RVA makes their extracts?

I know JFish is active on this forum--if it's a trade secret I respect that but I'm really curious how he achieves such great results.

Reading some stuff written by people with chemistry knowledge, it seems like these methods using vinegar, alcohol, heat, etc. don't actually pull out much mitragynine.

To get a reliably potent extract it looks like you need to use harsher chemicals like toluene, etc. that I'm just not comfortable using.

I'd be concerned about having a toxic product at the end.

That said I have a ton of kratom and it would be great to produce some extract DIY.

Also, I haven't tried any of these methods yet so I'm just going off of what I've read. No experience doing it [yet].

[Jking]

I also very curious on how some company’s make their extract. It must really be a trade secret for some cause I tried various extractions using various teks, and never produced a extract close to the quality of my favorite vendors. I assume they have created, or used an method most people either don’t know; or can’t make/replicate.

[MycatTimmy]

I went to Herbal RVA to look at their extracts but couldn’t find any. Or any Kratom for that matter. Is there more than one website ?

[BallzDeep9]

Reading some stuff written by people with chemistry knowledge, it seems like these methods using vinegar, alcohol, heat, etc. don't actually pull out much mitragynine. To get a reliably potent extract it looks like you need to use harsher chemicals like toluene, etc ....
I'd be concerned about having a toxic product at the end.

Well, we all know ya don't believe everything written on the Internet ? "Consider the Source". . With Kratom, there are a LOT of opinions but very few FACTS... Many amateur "chemists", and of course influenced by shilling for Money, steering people to buy crazy expensive Retail products.

So #1 respectfully disagree with your statement above. Acid +Heat is your basic Kratom Prep (or "brewing" method) and, it definitely DOES pull out plenty of Mitragynine... Test it yourself. Or take a consensus of opinion, from those who do and have done, the Prep, either Red Bubble, or Filtered Tea. We have consumer experience, yes, Kratom Tea making does work.

Besides the Acid +Heat, two other mechanical methods are proven in science and used in Labs, to break down raw plant material and extract the goodies - #1 is High Pressure - Aeropress adds pressure along with heat. Then #2 is Freezing, known as cell lysis, again a proven method used with Kratom and other types of extraction.

So, Estimates given by MANY kratom users who produce a simple Kratom Tea extract - Range from 50% up to, maybe 70% percent? Effects from Tea vs consuming raw powder. Read the Aeropress thread on MM - OK then, I think it's accepted that Ethanol, food grade "Everclear" does "get" MORE alkaloids compared to any method using Acid alone. So let's give that another 20% for common Ethanol +Acid extract method ? to create the so-called Full Spectrum, 20X Extract sold by many vendors.

We have maybe 30% remaining! . Alkaloids that can NOT be extracted by 1- Aeropress Tea, or 2- Ethanol based 20X type... and, figure a professional Drug Lab, does a better job compared to me trying at home? Does that make sense? So your Herbal RVA caps, or your O.P.M.S. caps, are done in a Drug Lab. yes Herbal RVA does carry a professional Extract - it's not from his Kitchen table! lol.... ALSO remember: Even the BEST Pure Mitragyna A/B extract, Caleb's or MoBo, still recommend you take them along with, some plain Leaf. Why? Because there is still... something missing. Pure extract does not FEEL "Full Spectrum".

Alright so... Bottom Line. You and Me trying the A/B stuff at home, using toxic dangerous chemicals: Toluene, Naptha, base such as NaOH (Lye), and possibly even hydrochloric acid: HCI ?? You're going to risk a Meth Lab situation, or a accident with severe burns & calling 911 - for what? About 10% more alkaloids? - that's cray-zee... Anyone to even consider this, should FIRST get an Aeropress and use that tool. Then try #2 the combo Ethanol 20X method.

[acct55]

Yeah my goal is to create my own extract purely for the following reasons:
1) I travel a lot and it would be nice to be able to carry a month's worth of kratom with me without actually carrying a suspicious amount of powder (some countries look down on that even though it's legal).
2) I have a boatload of kratom. I know if stored properly it will keep for years, but I would like to preserve some of it indefinitely if possible.

Also, that makes sense that HRVA's extract is lab grade. I just couldn't understand how someone could get that high quality of an extract using at-home methods.

And I'm aware that extracts don't feel like powder... Again, my goal is to reduce the amount of powder I have to travel with so I'll basically be creating extract to enhance my own powder. It won't be quite the same but close enough.

I plan on getting my results lab tested once I actually finish it. I'm a "precision doser" or whatever so I like to know exactly how much I'm taking.

Do you recommend doing multiple passes? i.e. Kratom powder > extract method #1 > extract method #2 > final extract product?

I'm also a little confused on the ethanol part. People say to use isopropyl alcohol because it is a nonpolar solvent. Others say to use ethanol (grain alcohol like Everclear)... But ethanol is polar--not nonpolar. Can anyone advise on this?

[BallzDeep9]

I'm also a little confused on the ethanol part. People say to use isopropyl alcohol because it is a nonpolar solvent. Others say to use ethanol (grain alcohol like Everclear)... But ethanol is polar--not nonpolar. Can anyone advise on this?

From Wikipedia: Ethanol is considered a universal solvent, as its molecular structure allows for the dissolving of both polar, hydrophilic and nonpolar, hydrophobic compounds. As ethanol also has a low boiling point, it is easy to remove from a solution that has been used to dissolve other compounds, making it a popular extracting agent for botanical oils.

Ethanol, "Everclear" 190 proof, is food-grade and generally preferred for making herbal extracts... However ISO is cheaper, evaporates faster, but - has toxic properties. . But, Everclear is not even sold legally in many states... Pro's and Con's. You make a good point about the polarity. Mitragynine is definitely a hydrophobic, non-polar compound so ISO may work slightly better? Lots of discussion on Reddit. Some chat from 5 years ago by u/Hymnder and others, is interesting... https://old.reddit.com/r/kratom/search? ... over_18=on