Less is more - one reason why folks increase

[Kelleytoons]

I've thought about this a lot but last night had a kind of epiphany.

I was taking my nighttime dose (I think there's nothing wrong with dosing at night if it helps you sleep, which kratom certainly does. When my body is truly feeling the pain nothing is better than my second dose of the day taken about an hour before bedtime) and it was a strain I had used before, back in my "abusing kratom" days, without any effect whatsoever. But this time I took my usual 2.5 grams and lo and behold it was wonderful. I actually took it about two hours before bedtime and as it kicked in I was thinking it might be in my top ten (this morning, in the hard light of day I realize that's not true but it was still very good and let me sleep a full eight hours without even getting up, which is kind of amazing for an old a man as I am and the pain I normally have).

So I was wondering why I ended up taking 8-9 grams per dose (and sometimes more). I didn't start off that way. Even though I have a HIGH opioid tolerance (for years prior to kratom I was taking three and four pills a day. Prescribed by a doctor who was...ahem, generous to say the least. I still have hundreds of them left) and am a large guy (okay, I'm fat. Sigh) I started off, like most folks, very low. Like a gram or two. That was recommended to me and sure enough seemed to work just fine.

But how did I end up taking more? I think what happened was this: I took a strain one day and it just didn't kick in with the same strength. So, I thought, well next time I'll bump it up and I did. And it seemed to be better. And so on, until I reached a point where it didn't seem all that good but I thought, well, it's the strain, so I bumped it up more and... ended up with taking so much but having so few times when it really "hit". It was only after LoveandPeace convinced me to try a smaller dose that I did and all was good again.

We ALL have those times when a strain doesn't work. It might be the strain, it might be our particular chemistry that day, it might be you need a two or three day break, it might be our stomachs or (if you're Mr. B and full of shit that day, it might be you needed a BM) but for some reason it doesn't work and then you try to increase the dose chasing after that elusive "perfect" experience. When if we would just relax and try again at a low dose we'd find it was just great again.

Anyway, now that my doses are RELATIVELY small (and only you can find out that perfect dose size for you - for some it might be a LOT higher than mine, and some folks are fine with a LOT lower ones) I will never increase it again. If the magic doesn't happen I won't go chasing after it. Because I do think you can reach that spot where it doesn't work at all - that less really IS more - and by staying at your normal dose you'll never get to that terrible point.

[Roofdog]

I've thought about this a lot but last night had a kind of epiphany.

I was taking my nighttime dose (I think there's nothing wrong with dosing at night if it helps you sleep, which kratom certainly does. When my body is truly feeling the pain nothing is better than my second dose of the day taken about an hour before bedtime) and it was a strain I had used before, back in my "abusing kratom" days, without any effect whatsoever. But this time I took my usual 2.5 grams and lo and behold it was wonderful. I actually took it about two hours before bedtime and as it kicked in I was thinking it might be in my top ten (this morning, in the hard light of day I realize that's not true but it was still very good and let me sleep a full eight hours without even getting up, which is kind of amazing for an old a man as I am and the pain I normally have).

So I was wondering why I ended up taking 8-9 grams per dose (and sometimes more). I didn't start off that way. Even though I have a HIGH opioid tolerance (for years prior to kratom I was taking three and four pills a day. Prescribed by a doctor who was...ahem, generous to say the least. I still have hundreds of them left) and am a large guy (okay, I'm fat. Sigh) I started off, like most folks, very low. Like a gram or two. That was recommended to me and sure enough seemed to work just fine.

But how did I end up taking more? I think what happened was this: I took a strain one day and it just didn't kick in with the same strength. So, I thought, well next time I'll bump it up and I did. And it seemed to be better. And so on, until I reached a point where it didn't seem all that good but I thought, well, it's the strain, so I bumped it up more and... ended up with taking so much but having so few times when it really "hit". It was only after LoveandPeace convinced me to try a smaller dose that I did and all was good again.

We ALL have those times when a strain doesn't work. It might be the strain, it might be our particular chemistry that day, it might be you need a two or three day break, it might be our stomachs or (if you're Mr. B and full of shit that day, it might be you needed a BM) but for some reason it doesn't work and then you try to increase the dose chasing after that elusive "perfect" experience. When if we would just relax and try again at a low dose we'd find it was just great again.

Anyway, now that my doses are RELATIVELY small (and only you can find out that perfect dose size for you - for some it might be a LOT higher than mine, and some folks are fine with a LOT lower ones) I will never increase it again. If the magic doesn't happen I won't go chasing after it. Because I do think you can reach that spot where it doesn't work at all - that less really IS more - and by staying at your normal dose you'll never get to that terrible point.

This is good info. Appreciate the thought and sharing you're experience. I have been playing with this over the last couple weeks. I was at 7-8gpd and now an at about 5. I will try to lower it again in a week or so. Its funny that this incredible leaf goes against all things we know that make us "feel good" the more the better right? This plant is excellent in that sense, it has its own method of not allowing us to abuse it. I truly believe God intended for it to work this way. I love that people can share their testimony here freely and we can all learn from it. So thanks again!!

[Badgame85]

Well said my friend. This is so very true. And I have lived this scenario over and over in the past. Just recently I was on vacation and decided to do like a reset. Grabbed some of the junk kratom I had (Golden Monk - White Borneo from 2019) that has been sitting in my kratom storage base for when the apocalypse hits

Sure enough after 2 days of taking that old leaf, I was blown away from the effects I was getting! Did I spike this old stuff with some extract or something? How is this happening?? This is supposed to just be "withdraw prevention kratom!"

I dropped from 6-8 grams of my high quality stuff to a fraction of that. All I wanted was to rapid taper and hold off any uncomfortable side effects. But low and behold, I was getting some of the best burns I've had for months. That's when I realized the same thing that you wrote. Not only do I not need to take as much anymore of ANY Kratom I have, but it showed me that more of the tolerance and effects we get are based solely on our body's and the dosage decisions we make.

It can be hard mentally to understand that the less you take the better you feel, but it does work. Just need to let your body reset and be more efficient.

[Loveandpeace]

Love this topic, in fact, Kelley knows that it is my absolute most favorite subject on Kratom.

It is maddening that less is more is true. Guaranteed to have you questioning up and down as you THINK you know it.

I have said this before, be it controversial or not - I wish Kratom was in my life when I began my drug journey 30 years ago. It should be mentioned more to the younger, obviously curious bunch. It has its own regulation. Fucking fascinating!! Like actual magic! I hear the word 'plant medicine' or 'teacher' plants and I get it... but this leaf really makes sure you understand moderation. It is built into the fibers of the leaf (literally) and philosophy of an existential 'sweet spot' that slaps some of us the best way we know... lucidity.

OK, ok..OK... a little stony talk there too. I went back to work teaching today after a summer break and settled into bed.

[Kelleytoons]

And you know that I always credit you with putting me back on the correct path (or if I don't I really mean to).

I *think* it was Mr. B that had the explanation for this weird effect - that because the gut processes kratom you can sort of overwhelm it which not only causes constipation but also prevents any further kratom from working. Like it's a blocker. So you must keep the dose low enough to avoid this blocking. Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly (my cats just got me up at 4am because DW is off in Iowa with relatives and daddy has to be the one to feed them. Sigh).

In any case it's made the biggest difference in my Kratom journey. I am lucky you, LoveandPeace, helped me out and cannot thank you enough.

[HalcyonicFrankfurter]

It's pretty complicated based on my experience. I don't find that I increase dose for no reason cause it does make it stronger for a certain amount of time, but then it becomes no better than a lower dose. So I find myself working up, and then down again. That seems the best; work up to a good dose, take that for a few weeks, and then cut down 1/4 for a week, and another 1/4 later. Then eventually that won't feel as good anymore, and you work up LOL.

But that's just the basics. It also depends on strain. Some strains I found really start to blunt their effects if you take more than 5-6 (likely antagonists present). And some strains completely change their effects based on dose. I have one (canopy green asia) that feels like a maeng da at low doses and a red at high doses. They all tend to be more stimulating at low doses, but some completely change like this.

[Kelleytoons]

No offense meant, but I suspect if you looked closely you'd find you don't have to increase that dose at all. That the time you took it no matter the dose you would have experienced lower than expected results - either you ate too soon before taking, or your bowels weren't empty, or you didn't change strains quickly enough or you just needed a two or three day break. I think you're fooling yourself if you think you need to increase.

But that was my experience. Obviously this is a VERY peculiar plant that affects so many of us in so many different ways. I'm just glad I found a routine that works.

[Kelleytoons]

Wow - here's a great example just today.

I wasn't going to take any today - not playing tennis for another few days and just going to laze around the house so no real need. But I laid down to help one of our "girls" (our cats) be comfortable (I'm the cat daddy while mom is off in Iowa visiting relatives and they always cuddle with her on the bed). I was just going to read but Boo cuddled on top of me like she normally does with my wife (NEVER me) and, sure enough, I feel fast asleep while in a terrible position for sleep (with my head and body propped up to read but as I passed out my head went sideways and got all akimbo). When I woke up I could hardly move my head due to neck pain.

So I go into the kitchen and see a red in my rotation that I knew wasn't all that great (or so I thought - during my "abusive days" of taking lots more it hardly worked). I thought - "let's just take a few pills (each .5 grams) to see if it takes the edge off". So - perhaps a gram but certainly less than two.

Now - 90 minutes later - I am completely mellow, pain free, and feeling SO fine. I had ZERO expectations for this low a dose on something which had never worked before. That's the fun part because I have so much that I'm still getting around to things that, at 7-8 grams, were "written off". But now, of course, at this lower dose they are all amazing.

For months now every single thing I try is a hit - some less than others (during the testing of TFH I found four samples I was not interested in ordering but they weren't bad, just no comparison to the great ones). But all working very effectively. I reiterate my thanks, once again, to LoveandPeace. My only problem now is have SO many kilos I won't EVERY use all of this.

[Eu4oric906]

Good topic. Its so counter to the normal cycles of substance. For me, back in the day if a little was good, then a lot is better! Next thing I know I wake up on the couch “fire ready” (fully dressed w shoes on). Happened more than im proud to admit.

Kratom is different, and i knew this, but it didnt stop me from testing the old theory. I dont judge, I clearly have no room to talk - but my personal goal these days is to avoid being dependent to a level where I must have something or suffer withdrawal. I have to maintain control, not the other way around. Alcohol ran my life for a lot of years, now its an occasional indulgence. Love my coffee, but i watch my caffeine.

With kratom i take a 3.5 gram dose, no extracts, and it pays off for me. I enjoy the feel of kratom as my tolerance is managed and I avoid any withrawal issues on days without it - because I have days without it.

If I listen, kratom teaches me responsible use is the best way for me to enjoy.

[Badgame85]

I think the biggest hurdle is the mental challenge to make yourself suppress your intake.

Most (if not all of us) use Kratom for a very specific or multiple reasons. Taken at specific time for specific benefits. Its almost like part of our daily schedule.

So when one says... "hey less is more today" and they take a much smaller amount...chances are pretty good that your not going to achieve the desired effects that you were trying to get 45-60 mins ago. Then you scramble and say "why did I do that" and you gobble up a bunch more. And the cycle continues.

So while I can vouch that taking less actually does work and in some cases can restore that missing magic... I think a lot of people (such as myself) have a hard time going through this process as the real benefits for me by taking less don't kick in for at least 2-3 days. And this hurts, literally and figuratively

PS I honestly think the reason that I get little to no effects dropping from my usual (6-8g per dose) to (2-3g per dose) is because how long I've been taking my regular dose. So practice makes perfect. But then what am I going to do with all this kratom?!? I'm OCD and want to use each bag and complete it lol.

[Kelleytoons]

See, I don't find that at all.

I was taking, as I said, about 7-8 grams per dose and it was getting worse (the effects were less and less although some strains "hit" better than others). LoveandPeace convinced me to at least TRY a lower dose.

And, as you say, I was taking it for a VERY specific reason - for me it's playing tennis without pain, and then sleeping that day without pain. So I was loathe to try less if it didn't work. But, what the hell, it wasn't working well anyway so I just lowered my dose to 3 grams. And it was GREAT. Immediately. I did it again - same results. And I've never looked back.

If anything I've tended to lower my dose even more - now my typical dose is 2.5 grams. I haven't experimented with lower doses and I might but it seems about "right" AND I NEVER have to increase it. EVERY SINGLE STRAIN I try hits. Some are better than others, of course, but it ALL works, even stuff I had written off months ago. And I don't think this is magic or I'm atypical - when you read about a lot of folks, this is FAR more typical than not. Less is indeed more - most likely because more overwhelms those gut receptacles but for whatever the reason if a dose ISN'T hitting it's because you took too much, not too little.

But if what you are doing is working and you DON'T have to increase the dose then it's fine. Let's say 10 grams per dose works for you and ALWAYS works for you - that's the right amount. All I was trying to address is that if it ISN'T working, if some times you have missed, then it's because you are taking too much and lowering your base will make it all work again. (But, as I said, this also assumes that you are doing all the other right things - rotating strains, taking a break from time to time, keeping your bowels moving and not taking it after eating). I've now found my sweet spot and perhaps you have found yours, as well. Just never increase it (just go lower).

[JerseyBoy]

Thank you for sharing this info Kelleytoons. I am a 7 or 8g doser and need to start trying smaller doses. It's so funny how I tell my self 'next dose' I will try lower it never comes.

Full disclosure I am moving back to New Jersey next month, I have been in Florida for 7 years. I have a lot more friends and family up there and I want to start taking up capsules just as an easier way to dose while i'm on the go. I do not like getting preoccupied with how I can burn if I have things to do, no one does.

I've seen you mention in a few threads about your lower dose revelation, and I have seen you are a capsule user. I never have been but am going to try for the reason I mentioned but also because I drink wayyyy too much sugary OJ all day too. I just worry the capsules won't work, but it will just be a slower oncoming effect which is cool with me to be honest.


Going to start trying out capsules, I have a bunch of random ones, and start around 3 or 4 gram doses.


Just wanted to share my gratitude with the info you have shared, I have some hope going forward for myself haha.

[JerseyBoy]

Welp, i'll share that right after that post I took about 6 capsules each with about .8 grams in them and felt.....nothing really. Which is disheartening. I really really want capsules to work for me. I going to keep trying with them.

[Kelleytoons]

Remember all the other golden rules - vary your strains, wait three or four hours after you eat (empty stomach), have a daily bowel movement, and take a break every week or so (even a day or two will help tremendously).

If you are doing all of those things - take even fewer capsules. Right now my sweet spot on the capsules I make myself is five, which comes out almost exactly to 2.5 grams (my capsule making is pretty consistent. This weight is, of course, minus the capsule itself which runs around .11 grams).

With capsules it will also take around 55-70 minutes for the effects to hit, but they will/should last as long. I also am a big fan of taking them with some citric acid (Propel is perfect - it's not sweet nor acid tasting and yet the main ingredient after water is citric acid).

If it still isn't hitting for you when all the above things are true, it's most likely that just isn't a strain that works. I've tried over 100 various strains from at least 15 different vendors and there have been a few misses, to be sure. But the stuff that hits should hit just as well with a lower dose.

[Badgame85]

I've now found my sweet spot and perhaps you have found yours, as well. Just never increase it (just go lower).

Bingo!

I've been taking 6-8 grams a dose for many years now, and the only reason I am there is because I didn't follow the rules of taking breaks or reducing my intake on many occasions. Much like everyone else, I started with like 1.5-2 grams. But accepting "less is more" didn't jive with me for way to long. Now going lower for me definitely works... don't get me wrong. Just always seems to take a few days/doses to feel the benefits from the reduction.

But your right... everyone has a sweet spot. What's terrible is I feel shameful or guilty to admit that my (current) sweet spot is 6-8 grams. I feel like in the kratom community you are shunned for taking anything over 3-4g, and people will preach that you only need half that even. And there probably right too. But I also know that some people slam an oz a day or else all these vendors wouldn't still be in business

[add to descartes]

if less is more, I don't get why extracts are so popular. I'm in the "more is more" camp.

I've been taking 6-8 grams a dose for many years now, and the only reason I am there is because I didn't follow the rules of taking breaks or reducing my intake on many occasions. Much like everyone else, I started with like 1.5-2 grams. But accepting "less is more" didn't jive with me for way to long. Now going lower for me definitely works... don't get me wrong. Just always seems to take a few days/doses to feel the benefits from the reduction.

But your right... everyone has a sweet spot. What's terrible is I feel shameful or guilty to admit that my (current) sweet spot is 6-8 grams. I feel like in the kratom community you are shunned for taking anything over 3-4g, and people will preach that you only need half that even. And there probably right too. But I also know that some people slam an oz a day or else all these vendors wouldn't still be in business

ah yes, dose shaming is very popular. people dose shame if you take anything more than what they themselves take. it will never end.

I also take larger doses, because that's what works for me. believe me, I've messed around with doses a lot over the many years I've been taking it. but I don't usually advertise it because I can live without the condescending comments about how I don't need that much, or if I'm taking that much I might as well just take opiates because that's what I'm really looking for anyway, all sorts of crazy things.

i mean I would say the stories about people taking 70, 100 grams a day, yeah that's probably too much. but an ounce a day? that's fine to me. everyone draws the line of "too much" in a different place. it seems to bother people a lot if you say you're taking more than 15-20 grams a day.

[Kelleytoons]

As I said, you have to find your own sweet spot.

But - if you ARE taking the same dose and it's not working, and you have to boost your dose or add extracts or something... then LESS is indeed MORE. That's my point, not what your own particular sweet spot is.

Clearly some folks do fine with even 1 gram - but I don't. And some folks do fine with 7-8 grams. I don't, either. I found my sweet spot and it's around 2.5-3 grams. The only time I would question ANYONE'S dose is if they say "you know, none of these are hitting. I'm thinking of trying some extracts". That's CLEARLY a case of taking too much. (At the very least I would take a week off and start again at a lower dose, just to see).

The one place I'd never want to get is where I am at with opioids - they do NOTHING for me, no matter how many I take (well, I haven't tried a whole bottle at once but I also would prefer to remain breathing). I was heading in that direction and if others are as well then they need to examine what the heck they are doing wrong.

[Arob1000]

Kelly brought it up earlier in this thread but the #1 key for me to keep my dose constant is to rotate through batches and vendors.

Took a while to realize how important this was but when I go back to a batch which I’ve not used in a while it almost always hits much harder than anticipated. There are a few batches which always hit for me (Lucky Red Krakatoa batch 1, Okies last Green Bali, etc) but some batches work a lot better when used infrequently. For example this morning I took some Mitraman GMD (04/22) mixed with Mitraman Green Batak (01/2022) after not using either for a long while and it’s hitting way better than I remember!

[PeteSteel]

As Yngwie Malmsteen says, "I dont understand why people say less is more, more is always more"...

[Wingardiumspeciosa]

I had the same experience. I won’t get into the nitty gritty of what brought me to using leaf but I have a very similar history to a lot of others in this community.

I started at a whopping 11.8G x 5 times a day! This was to keep withdrawals at bay from some of my old nasty habits about 4 years ago. For the entirety of the first year I felt like more was the only way to maintain and enjoy the effects of the plant, but boy was I wrong. This was also VERY costly for me, essentially replacing one habit with another. It also caused a lot of nausea and stomach issues at the time. So one day I decided to say f*ck it and start tapering down.

I tapered VERY slowly. I am and always will be an advocate of a slow taper. If you have the means and patience to do so there’s no reason to do otherwise. I dropped .1, sometimes .01 or .05 off each dose per day. If I hit a stalling point where I either lost motivation to taper or VERY slightly lost effects I’d stall for 3 days.

After the 3 day mark at a new dose your body is pretty much accustomed to the new dose, I personally never lost effects. I made it from 60GPD all the way down to now 12GPD and I’ve been here for a few years now. I HAVE BETTER EFFECTS, NO NAUSEA NOW. The plant works SO much better at a lower mark. I also implement two 2-4 week breaks a year. I’ve never, never lost the effects of this plant in this entire process.

It’s crazy to think I used to believe anything below 10G a dose wouldn’t work, now I’m at 3-4G per at 3x , very rarely 4x a day. I could probably try to go lower, but I noticed under the 3G mark my effects are much more inconsistent. So I’ll hover here in contentment. It’s also allowed me to build somewhat of an incredible doomsday stash so I have zero fear of ever losing the plant.

Will I use it forever? Who knows, but for the time being, it’s changed my life for the better

I think that everyone has their individual sweet spot as mentioned, and if you’ve tried lower and it doesn’t cater to your needs I respect where you need to maintain, this is just my personal experience!

I’ve met people who claim to get loaded off sub 1 gram doses for example, which I believe but is not possible for me. So my 4G to them is what someone else’s 8G is to me. No judgement on either end, I do think that anyone who hasn’t TRIED tapering into a lower dose should give it a shot!

I think chemistry plays a large part in it as well. I’ve dabbled with numerous nootropics over the years. One special hell of a WD came from Phenibut. Interestingly enough, I could use 1G and suffer rebound anxiety for 3 days post, killing my burns. My brother tried the same stuff numerous times at 2-3G doses and felt absolutely nothing. So there is DEFINITELY something to be said for individual chemistry.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

I have been fighting this for the better part of 3 years. Started off doing 6-8g one time at night to get myself off of alcohol and other substances, and it WORKED. I was able to completely quit drinking (I was underage, and was literally punching walls when I couldn't get someone to buy me a few shooters at night...it was bad. Lost friends and relationships) and kratom gave me my life back. Right after I met my now wife and introduced her to the plant in 2018, she started taking some with me as she was a volleyball player and had some serious shoulder/knee pain and we're very into bodybuilding, so our bodies are consistently beat up.

Right around January 2019 I had chipped a tooth really bad and needed something for pain. At this point, I was still only dosing once a day. I decided to add 3-4 grams of a good green during the day to try to manage the pain. Low and behold, it WORKED. My tooth was fine, and it carried me until I could get it fixed. But at that point, I was continuing the second daily dose as it was also really helping me with social anxiety at work (worked retail at the time).

Shortly after my lady decided she was going to shoot for all day coverage and go to 3x daily dosing. It worked amazing for her and still does to this day. She's been 6g 3x daily for years and never had a tolerance issue to speak of. So naturally, I'm thinking "well if it works so well for her, why wouldn't it work for me!". Bring on the third daily dose. This started at 4g ish 2x daily and 6g at night time. Worked very well for about 3 months. Rotating vendors, got into this community and discord communities and found the absolute pinnacle of leaf. I was living my best life.

All of a sudden, it just stopped working. I upped the doses, lowered the doses, slow taper, aggressive taper, potentiators, freezing/red bubble, and it was working about 50% of the time. Progressively over the years, its just dwindled down to if I'm lucky, I feel good for an hour or so and then it dies off and I end up in withdrawals about 5 hours after dosing, but I have NEVER let myself get over 3x daily no matter what is happening in my life, pain levels, anxiety, etc.

I took 6.3g of a great yellow this morning mixed in hot water and lemon juice and with a pill of cayenne pepper. Absolutely nothing. I'm sipping some kava now, anxiety is under control, and I'm feeling good, but I know that when I get home from the gym today my joints are going to be in a massive amount of pain. This thread inspired me to mix up a dose of a favorite batch, but this time, at 4g. I'm going to pray that this works and gets it under control as it is my wifes birthday and I truly want to give her a great day and be at my best.

Any suggestions are welcome for doses or things to try. Don't want to derail the thread, but felt this was pretty relevant. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. lol

[Kelleytoons]

I think I just wrote this to you elsewhere but at the risk of getting personal - you ARE having a daily BM, aren't you?

That's vitally important - you need your bowels to be empty for the effects to work. It's *possible* that either your diet, or kratom use has caused you to become constipated and in that case there isn't anything you can do about it until you get emptied out. So - all the usual suspects there (just Google and you'll find a TON of things to do, although the first and most obvious things are a gallon of water a day and plenty of roughage).

Assuming your bowels are just fine then the other thing I'd be concerned about is if you've tried a reset - this takes at least three days but a week is never a Bad Idea. Take the entire time off and when you come back it ought to start working again at lower doses.

The only other thing I'd be sure of is whether you've tried different vendors. If you buy something well recommended here from a vendor you've never used before you will up your chances of it working.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

I think I just wrote this to you elsewhere but at the risk of getting personal - you ARE having a daily BM, aren't you?

That's vitally important - you need your bowels to be empty for the effects to work. It's *possible* that either your diet, or kratom use has caused you to become constipated and in that case there isn't anything you can do about it until you get emptied out. So - all the usual suspects there (just Google and you'll find a TON of things to do, although the first and most obvious things are a gallon of water a day and plenty of roughage).

Assuming your bowels are just fine then the other thing I'd be concerned about is if you've tried a reset - this takes at least three days but a week is never a Bad Idea. Take the entire time off and when you come back it ought to start working again at lower doses.

The only other thing I'd be sure of is whether you've tried different vendors. If you buy something well recommended here from a vendor you've never used before you will up your chances of it working.

BM's have been good. Daily just the way they should be.

I've always used Lucky, Smiley, Benni, mitraman, Fused Flora, TFH, Oties, and a few others. I have a stockpile of probably 20 key's right now of fire so we're good there. I'm scared of a full reset, but that may be the last resort.

[Kelleytoons]

A reset shouldn't scare you. If you haven't become addicted (and you should not have) then taking at least three days off is easy (sometimes I don't even notice - I turn around and think "Hmmm, when was the last time I dosed?"

It's the only absolute way to get everything going again when all else has failed.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

A reset shouldn't scare you. If you haven't become addicted (and you should not have) then taking at least three days off is easy (sometimes I don't even notice - I turn around and think "Hmmm, when was the last time I dosed?"

It's the only absolute way to get everything going again when all else has failed.

Longest I've done is 2 days, was miserable, and it did nothing for my tolerance. I'm guessing 3 days is the magic number to start making an impact for most?

[BallzDeep9]

All of a sudden, it just stopped working. I upped the doses, lowered the doses .... I feel good for an hour or so and then it dies off and I end up in withdrawals about 5 hours after dosing, - but I have NEVER let myself get over 3x daily no matter what is happening in my life .... I took 6.3g of a great yellow this morning mixed in hot water and lemon juice and with a pill of cayenne pepper. Absolutely nothing.

Any suggestions are welcome for doses or things to try. Don't want to derail the thread, but felt this was pretty relevant.

Yes. Thank You for the TED-x Talk! . OK so, excuse my snipping your Quote there... I think we (the Community) understands this is "Bro Science", it's not been studied enough, yet, by real Science... But! imo there IS agreement, on a few things, among experienced folks ...

• Less Is More
• Floor And Ceiling

There are just 1000's of experienced kratomites who AGREE, that "Less Is More" because they did TRY, all different models - They tried BIG servings, Small servings, and in between. And it's really... Grams Per Day. Your total GPD must be the Bottom Line.

The Floor is well known: "You cant overdose on Kratom", so all the druggies say GREAT!! We'll just take More & More then! . Ahh but... Ceiling. You bonk your head on the Ceiling... That does not feel good! - Maybe picture you're in an Empty Room... the Room starts filling up with water. You tread water, breathing the Air - until the Room gets almost FULL - then you're in trouble. Do you want to breathe air ? OR drown....

Your mµ opioid Receptors are like a Bucket - Filling up your Tolerance bucket to overflowing, . leaves NO room in the bucket for your Receptors to operate. That ROOM, in the bucket - IS your Tolerance. Once you've filled up the bucket - you can't FEEL the kratom any more. Kratom IS active around 2 grams. Less than 1 Teaspoon. So taking 6+ Grams, or a Tablespoon - immediately fills your Bucket and you feel... NOTHING.

IMO, In my Experience, and reported by others - The First Sign you've maxed out Tolerance IS - Inter-Dose Withdrawals - exactly like you say... Having a BAD withdrawal feeling, just 5 hours after your Kratom serving ? you're doing TOO MUCH Kratom, as measured by - GPD. And now - you'll need to do a Reset. Which does take time.... It TOOK time to build UP your Tolerance... it WILL take time, to up-regulate Tolerance/ bring it back down.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

All of a sudden, it just stopped working. I upped the doses, lowered the doses .... I feel good for an hour or so and then it dies off and I end up in withdrawals about 5 hours after dosing, - but I have NEVER let myself get over 3x daily no matter what is happening in my life .... I took 6.3g of a great yellow this morning mixed in hot water and lemon juice and with a pill of cayenne pepper. Absolutely nothing.

Any suggestions are welcome for doses or things to try. Don't want to derail the thread, but felt this was pretty relevant.

Yes. Thank You for the TED-x Talk! . OK so, excuse my snipping your Quote there... I think we (the Community) understands this is "Bro Science", it's not been studied enough, yet, by real Science... But! imo there IS agreement, on a few things, among experienced folks ...

• Less Is More
• Floor And Ceiling

There are just 1000's of experienced kratomites who AGREE, that "Less Is More" because they did TRY, all different models - They tried BIG servings, Small servings, and in between. And it's really... Grams Per Day. Your total GPD must be the Bottom Line.

The Floor is well known: "You cant overdose on Kratom", so all the druggies say GREAT!! We'll just take More & More then! . Ahh but... Ceiling. You bonk your head on the Ceiling... That does not feel good! - Maybe picture you're in an Empty Room... the Room starts filling up with water. You tread water, breathing the Air - until the Room gets almost FULL - then you're in trouble. Do you want to breathe air ? OR drown....

Your mµ opioid Receptors are like a Bucket - Filling up your Tolerance bucket to overflowing, . leaves NO room in the bucket for your Receptors to operate. That ROOM, in the bucket - IS your Tolerance. Once you've filled up the bucket - you can't FEEL the kratom any more. Kratom IS active around 2 grams. Less than 1 Teaspoon. So taking 6+ Grams, or a Tablespoon - immediately fills your Bucket and you feel... NOTHING.

IMO, In my Experience, and reported by others - The First Sign you've maxed out Tolerance IS - Inter-Dose Withdrawals - exactly like you say... Having a BAD withdrawal feeling, just 5 hours after your Kratom serving ? you're doing TOO MUCH Kratom, as measured by - GPD. And now - you'll need to do a Reset. Which does take time.... It TOOK time to build UP your Tolerance... it WILL take time, to up-regulate Tolerance/ bring it back down.

I would agree with most of that. I have never gotten anything really below 3-4g to hit and even then it only hit for a few days until I had to go up. For awhile, 6g was perfect. Then one day it just kinda stopped working and never came back.

Oddly enough, when I do get it to work, it takes almost 2 hours to kick in for me. At minimum and hour 15-an hour 30. It never used to be this way. I thought maybe it was slow digestion, but when I take caffeine, kava, or anything else, it usually hits in just a few minutes. Its solely a kratom issue. That problem is actually more confusing to me than the tolerance issue. lol

In about 20 min I'm going to try dropping to 4g with a dash of hirsuta incase of any withdrawal issues. Going to be doing a lot of running around tonight so all I need is some pain relief and I will be happy. Fingers crossed I can at least get the therapeutic side to work and feel okay for my wifes birthday

[Roofdog]

All of a sudden, it just stopped working. I upped the doses, lowered the doses .... I feel good for an hour or so and then it dies off and I end up in withdrawals about 5 hours after dosing, - but I have NEVER let myself get over 3x daily no matter what is happening in my life .... I took 6.3g of a great yellow this morning mixed in hot water and lemon juice and with a pill of cayenne pepper. Absolutely nothing.

Any suggestions are welcome for doses or things to try. Don't want to derail the thread, but felt this was pretty relevant.

Yes. Thank You for the TED-x Talk! . OK so, excuse my snipping your Quote there... I think we (the Community) understands this is "Bro Science", it's not been studied enough, yet, by real Science... But! imo there IS agreement, on a few things, among experienced folks ...

• Less Is More
• Floor And Ceiling

There are just 1000's of experienced kratomites who AGREE, that "Less Is More" because they did TRY, all different models - They tried BIG servings, Small servings, and in between. And it's really... Grams Per Day. Your total GPD must be the Bottom Line.

The Floor is well known: "You cant overdose on Kratom", so all the druggies say GREAT!! We'll just take More & More then! . Ahh but... Ceiling. You bonk your head on the Ceiling... That does not feel good! - Maybe picture you're in an Empty Room... the Room starts filling up with water. You tread water, breathing the Air - until the Room gets almost FULL - then you're in trouble. Do you want to breathe air ? OR drown....

Your mµ opioid Receptors are like a Bucket - Filling up your Tolerance bucket to overflowing, . leaves NO room in the bucket for your Receptors to operate. That ROOM, in the bucket - IS your Tolerance. Once you've filled up the bucket - you can't FEEL the kratom any more. Kratom IS active around 2 grams. Less than 1 Teaspoon. So taking 6+ Grams, or a Tablespoon - immediately fills your Bucket and you feel... NOTHING.

IMO, In my Experience, and reported by others - The First Sign you've maxed out Tolerance IS - Inter-Dose Withdrawals - exactly like you say... Having a BAD withdrawal feeling, just 5 hours after your Kratom serving ? you're doing TOO MUCH Kratom, as measured by - GPD. And now - you'll need to do a Reset. Which does take time.... It TOOK time to build UP your Tolerance... it WILL take time, to up-regulate Tolerance/ bring it back down.

I would agree with most of that. I have never gotten anything really below 3-4g to hit and even then it only hit for a few days until I had to go up. For awhile, 6g was perfect. Then one day it just kinda stopped working and never came back.

Oddly enough, when I do get it to work, it takes almost 2 hours to kick in for me. At minimum and hour 15-an hour 30. It never used to be this way. I thought maybe it was slow digestion, but when I take caffeine, kava, or anything else, it usually hits in just a few minutes. Its solely a kratom issue. That problem is actually more confusing to me than the tolerance issue. lol

In about 20 min I'm going to try dropping to 4g with a dash of hirsuta incase of any withdrawal issues. Going to be doing a lot of running around tonight so all I need is some pain relief and I will be happy. Fingers crossed I can at least get the therapeutic side to work and feel okay for my wifes birthday

You can always try sublingual. Just cut your dose down a bit. This works for me.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

Yes. Thank You for the TED-x Talk! . OK so, excuse my snipping your Quote there... I think we (the Community) understands this is "Bro Science", it's not been studied enough, yet, by real Science... But! imo there IS agreement, on a few things, among experienced folks ...

• Less Is More
• Floor And Ceiling

There are just 1000's of experienced kratomites who AGREE, that "Less Is More" because they did TRY, all different models - They tried BIG servings, Small servings, and in between. And it's really... Grams Per Day. Your total GPD must be the Bottom Line.

The Floor is well known: "You cant overdose on Kratom", so all the druggies say GREAT!! We'll just take More & More then! . Ahh but... Ceiling. You bonk your head on the Ceiling... That does not feel good! - Maybe picture you're in an Empty Room... the Room starts filling up with water. You tread water, breathing the Air - until the Room gets almost FULL - then you're in trouble. Do you want to breathe air ? OR drown....

Your mµ opioid Receptors are like a Bucket - Filling up your Tolerance bucket to overflowing, . leaves NO room in the bucket for your Receptors to operate. That ROOM, in the bucket - IS your Tolerance. Once you've filled up the bucket - you can't FEEL the kratom any more. Kratom IS active around 2 grams. Less than 1 Teaspoon. So taking 6+ Grams, or a Tablespoon - immediately fills your Bucket and you feel... NOTHING.

IMO, In my Experience, and reported by others - The First Sign you've maxed out Tolerance IS - Inter-Dose Withdrawals - exactly like you say... Having a BAD withdrawal feeling, just 5 hours after your Kratom serving ? you're doing TOO MUCH Kratom, as measured by - GPD. And now - you'll need to do a Reset. Which does take time.... It TOOK time to build UP your Tolerance... it WILL take time, to up-regulate Tolerance/ bring it back down.

I would agree with most of that. I have never gotten anything really below 3-4g to hit and even then it only hit for a few days until I had to go up. For awhile, 6g was perfect. Then one day it just kinda stopped working and never came back.

Oddly enough, when I do get it to work, it takes almost 2 hours to kick in for me. At minimum and hour 15-an hour 30. It never used to be this way. I thought maybe it was slow digestion, but when I take caffeine, kava, or anything else, it usually hits in just a few minutes. Its solely a kratom issue. That problem is actually more confusing to me than the tolerance issue. lol

In about 20 min I'm going to try dropping to 4g with a dash of hirsuta incase of any withdrawal issues. Going to be doing a lot of running around tonight so all I need is some pain relief and I will be happy. Fingers crossed I can at least get the therapeutic side to work and feel okay for my wifes birthday

You can always try sublingual. Just cut your dose down a bit. This works for me.

I did that one time when I was in college and needed to wake up a bit before class but also had to get my post workout meal in. I think if I remember right, I did a smiley white at like 3g under the tongue and it did give me a little kick... I've considered maybe doing like 3g mixed up in water with lemon and cayenne (seems to help me a lot, and the lemon has done wonders for my acid reflux), and then drop a gram or two under my tongue about 15-20 min into it and see if I can kinda get it to kick a bit faster and drag out a bit more. Something I do really need to play around with, thanks for the reminder! Benni had suggested it to me years ago and I kinda forgot about it.

[Roofdog]

I would agree with most of that. I have never gotten anything really below 3-4g to hit and even then it only hit for a few days until I had to go up. For awhile, 6g was perfect. Then one day it just kinda stopped working and never came back.

Oddly enough, when I do get it to work, it takes almost 2 hours to kick in for me. At minimum and hour 15-an hour 30. It never used to be this way. I thought maybe it was slow digestion, but when I take caffeine, kava, or anything else, it usually hits in just a few minutes. Its solely a kratom issue. That problem is actually more confusing to me than the tolerance issue. lol

In about 20 min I'm going to try dropping to 4g with a dash of hirsuta incase of any withdrawal issues. Going to be doing a lot of running around tonight so all I need is some pain relief and I will be happy. Fingers crossed I can at least get the therapeutic side to work and feel okay for my wifes birthday

You can always try sublingual. Just cut your dose down a bit. This works for me.

I did that one time when I was in college and needed to wake up a bit before class but also had to get my post workout meal in. I think if I remember right, I did a smiley white at like 3g under the tongue and it did give me a little kick... I've considered maybe doing like 3g mixed up in water with lemon and cayenne (seems to help me a lot, and the lemon has done wonders for my acid reflux), and then drop a gram or two under my tongue about 15-20 min into it and see if I can kinda get it to kick a bit faster and drag out a bit more. Something I do really need to play around with, thanks for the reminder! Benni had suggested it to me years ago and I kinda forgot about it.

Benni is the one that suggested that to me several years ago as well. Lol. He is a cool dude!!

[WeAllFloatHere7]

You can always try sublingual. Just cut your dose down a bit. This works for me.

I did that one time when I was in college and needed to wake up a bit before class but also had to get my post workout meal in. I think if I remember right, I did a smiley white at like 3g under the tongue and it did give me a little kick... I've considered maybe doing like 3g mixed up in water with lemon and cayenne (seems to help me a lot, and the lemon has done wonders for my acid reflux), and then drop a gram or two under my tongue about 15-20 min into it and see if I can kinda get it to kick a bit faster and drag out a bit more. Something I do really need to play around with, thanks for the reminder! Benni had suggested it to me years ago and I kinda forgot about it.

Benni is the one that suggested that to me several years ago as well. Lol. He is a cool dude!!

Benni is the man for sure! Great leaf and just a super nice guy. In my top 5 vendors and always will be. I need to order from him again. Maybe bringing in some new good leaf will help my situation as I really haven't bought any new batches in quite some time, just been rolling on the same stash (granted it was like 20 kilos when I stopped buying more lol but still. Probably getting a little fatigued on the same stuff too).