contaminant testing

[brandon allen]

it would be really cool to get a lousy cooking of vendors that are in the bottom half of the price range today also do contaminant testing through labs or are even cgmp compliant of any exist. I do get many wouldn't care much however I think when legality is concerned having places that do the testing that would be FDA approved of in the end it stays legal in some sort of supplement standards and just for over all safety of the consumer. I feel if vendors think consumers care about that and that it will make a difference more may start going that direction. I know there's a couple that do that are on the monthly list idk just a rambled idea that's only half thought through and probably typo filled but I know some consumers are interested in it.

[e_poison]

This is a great idea, and I do believe some vendors do test for contaminants. A compiled list of them would be an awesome addition. I will pass this along!

[BallzDeep9]

...or are even cgmp compliant of any exist.

Hi, curious where you heard of this? Why is this important?

What is GMP? Good Manufacturing Practices. The "C" in front means Certified.

It's most often used in reference to drug manufacturing. The FDA wants to enforce a set of guidelines, for drug makers, on every part of their business. Everything. From raw material sourcing, chemical processing, mixing the drugs, making the pills, storage, record keeping, etc etc

Kratom HOWEVER ... Is not a drug. It's not "manufactured".. right? It's just leaves from a tree. Leaves. Not drugs. Natural Herbal Supplements. Not chemicals mixed in a lab, for human consumption in pill form or some wacky white powder..

So... WHY are we hearing about GMP? Because... the drug makers are involved in kratom. That's the shit we see in headshops, and gas stations. It's O.P.M.S. pills in a package to "Get you High". It's the Legal High industry, and you don't get high on supplements, only drugs .. WHO are the drug makers, they're the guys making BIG money who are involved in AKA, and now the KTA. Kratom Trade Association, head-shop "vendors". The guy in the movie: Leaf Of Faith.

Kratom should be sold NFHC. Kratom is also.. GRAS. "Generally Recognized As Safe"

[brandon allen]

it doesn't sound like you are curious where or why to this. to me it appears you have a deep opinion that can not be swayed and you are trying to force it upon people only focusing on over little detail. it is about keeping a safer processing of the leaves in q more controlled environment. you are correct it is generally safe but there should be better control on the business than hey bob and hope started a business in the garage selling kratom. they have a website and everything. holy wasnt a safer product don't you? the gmp goes over food beverages drugs and dietary supplements. all of which go into your body. why not conform to those standards? why are you so against it? idc if it's fully gmp I still unl the contamination testing list would be a good thing to have. especially if they're read a way to verify each lab was legit. you are right that some of the wrong people have their hands in the kratom industry but what industry doesn't have corrupt people or just the wrong people in some part of it? also is not about the legal high crap that seems like a way to try and discredit the idea and fil on attack it. they are not the only ones going for that at this point even if they started the idea. many vendors have had mention of it whether or not they were serious who knows. not headshop kratom vendors either many of the vendors I see mentioned on here and other places at some point have mentioned it... so are they all legal high vendors... I would think not but hey who knows cause I sure the hell don't know everything about each vendor I do have a life also one last thing if we all know it is being used for human consumption why would you try to have it sold not for human consumption the loop hole has worked this long but that isn't a permanent solution

[whiffypants]

Brandon, everyone here is welcome to their opinion, and stating it doesn't constitute "forcing it" on anyone. What Ballz said, he stated clearly and politely, which is more than I can say for your response.

We're not farmers, importers, or vendors here. I really don't understand why or how CGMP has anything to do with improving this site -- which is the topic of the forum you posted your comment in -- or what you think we could possibly do to make that happen with vendors even if we wanted to.

As Ballz pointed out, there's a dark side to that question, and even now there are plenty of vendors who claim to "test" their kratom but when you try to find out the specifics -- the lab used, contaminants tested for, etc -- it turns out to be a completely false claim. And that's before you get to the real thing, which then begs the question of agreeing on standards to test for among both producers and vendors.

The entire question of GMP and compliance and certification is a LOT more complex than you give it credit for, and again, I don't know how you think we on this board can change that -- even if we wanted to.

[BallzDeep9]

The entire question of GMP and compliance and certification is a LOT more complex ...

Exactly, whiffy it's a deep complex subject, and I don't claim to know all the details involved in GMP compliance, why, how, and whatever .. I do have a very basic understanding of the subject and I've done some research.

Brandon it sounds like you might benefit from some research, yourself, in order to discuss the subject in detail? Go ahead, there's a TON of stuff on Reddit, as with many things its a good place to start. Here, I'll even give you a LINK - start reading!

Drugs and Supplements, are two different things, in the eyes of FDA - and handled differently under the law. Herbalists, and herbal and botanical product importers, have been fighting with the FDA for 30+ years. There is also lots of information available at the American Herbal Products Association. Last year, the American Kratom Association (AKA) joined up with AHPA - they have been involved with herbal supplements since before the 1994 DSHEA federal law was enacted.

The 1994 DSHEA Act defines what's a "supplement" and how they are regulated under Federal law. Herbal supplements are not allowed to make statements regarding prevention, cure, mitigation or treatment of diseases. For example .. claiming that "Kratom is an effective pain medicine" makes it a drug. Please don't say that!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_S ... ct_of_1994

[botanicalstandard]

...or are even cgmp compliant of any exist.

Hi, curious where you heard of this? Why is this important?

What is GMP? Good Manufacturing Practices. The "C" in front means Certified.

C means current in CGMP in everywhere I've seen it used, except here. And there is a vendor that was previously on your list who has not been selling for months that does all the testing and packages in a real recently certified cleanroom while following GMP standards and guidelines. He should be back up in the next week or two and was fairly liked on reddit.

I don't think there are any certified GMP kratom products out there except the ones that use real copackers, not just other kratom vendors. There are a lot of shucksters out there who claim to be though. Especially the headhop brands. Those guys are feaking shady.

[whiffypants]

I don't think there are any certified GMP kratom products out there except the ones that use real copackers, not just other kratom vendors. There are a lot of shucksters out there who claim to be though. Especially the headhop brands. Those guys are feaking shady.

Thanks, Botanicalstandard. This has been my exact experience. As much as I can, I try to check out vendors that people ask about here, and literally Every Single Time I have looked into these statements made by relatively unknown vendors I have run into a wall of bullshit: the link to the lab report leads nowhere, the name of the lab report is unavailable "for privacy reasons", the contaminants tested for are unnamed, the vendor ghosts on inquiries for further details, or questions are met with more "we test!" claims but zero requested details, etc. Literally the ONLY thing that's left are numerous claims of "We Lab Test!" and "100% Lab Tested!" and "cGMP Compliant!" on the website itself. Some of the headshop brands actually do -- among the many who claim to, but do not -- but sorting out the true from the false there is pretty much impossible for me personally, and the prices are out of my range anyway so I'll leave that to others.

As I said recently in another post, at this point a vendor claim of "cGMP compliance" and/or "lab tested" is, to me, almost a hallmark of fraud as opposed to anything reliable. I -eagerly- await the day when this is not so, but that's where it is right now.

[BallzDeep9]

I guess you're referring to Herbaldom, and yes, we had to remove Herbaldom from the Vendor List, because he's been OOS the entire summer. Longer even! Kind of hard to tell what's going on .. He had big plans, all that stuff, 6 months ago .. At some point, we have to assume he's got other business outside of kratom. Many vendors are only part-time .. We all hope to see Herbaldom re-open again!

Agree with what you're saying .. Most co-packers won't touch kratom. The business is FULL of hucksters. How about the kratom/ kava vendor who runs Wonderland Labs? Do a reddit Search on that dude .. vendors claim his testing is legit? Is their Lab GMP compliant, or FDA certified.. NO? haha I do give some credit to SoCal for ditching Wonderland and finding a real Lab, SoCal is probably the largest online vendor now.

[botanicalstandard]

Right! Andrew (Disclaimer is my brother), has built a real cleanroom and had it certified (I don't think any vendor has a certified cleanroom), has a ton of machinery and just received half his shipment of kratom, I know it will be sent out for testing next week. I know he is working on his site and labeling right now, but he should be back with the cleanest product in the industry and the best value for your money. If you have facebook, you can see some pictures of what he's doing as he posts on his profile. Almost every vendor was talking about doing this before the summer and he was one of the only ones that did. He shut down in order to do it right and has sat through training and bullldozed through all the issues that come up doing all this expensive stuff on a small budget. Pm me if you want his FB, quite a few pics are public and you can see it without an account. If you knew hiim before he shut down send him a PM, he should be forming new QC groups once lab results come back.

[BlendsAreMyFriends]

If I understand it the entire purpose of GMP is to ensure that a product is manufactured all the way through from raw materials to final consumer ready packaging in a safe, repeatable and traceable manner.

Having a GMP compliant packaging facility is laudable but we're talking about wild trees harvested by minimum wage employees then aged and processed on dirt floors in open environments and packaged by other low paid workers using non-sterile equipment often outdoors or in a more or less open shed.

And then driven to a shipping point in vehicles that have God only knows what as the last cargo before the kratom.

So a GMP compliant facility to repackage the bulk shipments is a good start but it probably doesn't do as much for the safety of the product as it does for the marketing cred of the vendor.





.

[botanicalstandard]

Plenty of products are harvested in a similiar manner, spices, brazil nuts, ginko, shilajit etc. Having a GMP facility and packing process, shows that they test for contaminants and ensure they aren't an additional point of contamination in the supply chain or you can buy from a vendor that may have just sneezed (If someone sneezes in a cleanroom suit its just going to stay behind the mask and if it does happen to enter the room, the filters will pick it up and run it through a HEPA filter) or not washed his hands after going to the bathroom or packs his bags in a room full of black mold. Why buy from someone without a real cleanroom and facility, if it's essentially the same price at ($25 for 250G).

It's also about legitimizing the industry, homebased businesses are great, but in this industry it doesn't lend credence to our cause of keeping kraom legal. Showing politicians and the world we have clean facilities in the kratom industry is a great step toward keeping it legal. In case you didn't know, the FDA has been pushing for bans using the excuse of adulteration/contamination, cleanrooms and GMP facilities greatly reduce that risk. I know the reason for Andrew's cleanroom was, for one he wanted to sell other products that required it and it was to help bring clean facilities to how he packed kratom. It's not just throwing powder in a bag, it's about providing value. It is checking it for contamination, flakes of metal, making it so that employees never physically touch the powder because everything is machine driven, no one is hand scooping kratom out of their kitchen with them. If it was a marketing point, everyone would be doing it, its about caring, the process to do this costs well over a hundred thousand dollars. Which would be one fucking expensive marketing campaign for a small company and probably is not going to be recouped in additional sales. Plus how many vendors sent out contaminated product because of Salmonella in the last 6 months? Quite a few that we know about and quite a few that got lucky and no one got really sick from.

[brandon allen]

the point of this was about contamination testing. Ballz latched onto one detail that wasn't the main focus of what was said should be clear to see that. Ballz I dont need education on the topic. it wasn't the focus I didn't want to argue or debate about an afterthought. you could have seen that or at least that it was not the only part and maybe been open to the other details or even acknowledged them instead of fully turning it into only a cgmp conversation even after it said or even gmp if there are I said testing referring to contamination testing. but it's whatever again no point in arguing about it. a list of places that do test for contamination would be nice and it would add more traffic there are many people that are interested in that. doing research as to legitimacy of the testing should be on the consumer and not here. I agree many places do claim but won't provide anything when asked there also are vendors on the current list that claim to and will provide proof and answer follow up questions. the gmp part was never the focus and was said secondary and with a kind of if there are any showing hey not priority in idea. yes I do think the safety of consumer matters and if vendors think people care which there are many vendors who look here and utilize this site if they see a list like that they might want to be part of it they might not. if the list had people commenting and showing they wanted that it likely would be a small push and helpful. the whole fda attacking over salmonella and demonizing it with that is another door they can use to get in and possibly get enough public support to ban. they didn't this time but what about the next thing it's contaminated with I mean hell SoCal had e-coli contaminated products they didn't sell at one point and there are other doors that it could open for the fda to demonize if there is zero testing and places don't see people really give a shit about it. I'm sure prices would slightly raise but not drastically unless it was gmp but just for testing with clean safe facilities not to bad of an increase if they have a decent amount of business. testing isn't alot of work on the vendor it does slow the process however gmp is a huge whole different thingand has alot to it its not just hey take a test buy a building go. showing the vendors consumers want to buy from tested places may entice some new places to test and things of that nature. this was never about the gmp thing it was an afterthought but it would be cool to see at some point as well. it would kill the high quality small batch vendors off though and that would be a huge disappointment. there are plenty of pros and cons that could be listed and arguements for both sides on contamination testing and on gmp. just the testing is a step. big things do start small you never know what one list that thousands look at could do for the end result or what it could push for. it could be nothing more than a wasted list but it could make a difference. from what I see when I gave up on this after one response it just turned into only being about gmp it wasn't worth the time to me I likely won't say anything else on this post either it isn't a big issue. it could bring more traffic to the site a different group of people that do care about testing. there's many SoCal customers that stay there because of the testing but are not satisfied about the quality most times they would likely find new places and become active here as well. who knows

there were plenty of typos in the original post that made it slightly confusing however it wasn't really about what this turned into. I feel like e_poison saw what it should have been about. however one word was all it took to change every response to a different focus. there's likely a ton of typos here as well idk my phones autocorrect makes me look illiterate half the time and I don't go back and fix it often

[Payshince]

Wow! Good stuff guys
And esp. OP (Brandon Allen)

Good stuff
Great read and thread


Do we know how CLEAN the powders are that we consistently put into our mouths on a daily basis??

[herbalhippie]

Do we know how CLEAN the powders are that we consistently put into our mouths on a daily basis??

I try not to think too hard about it.


Silly, but my biggest fear is a new, virulent strain of bird flu from chicken shit.

[kratomandmath]

Brandon, not trying to be a dick, but dude it would really help if you used some kind of punctuation, like a period for a complete sentence. I don't want to be some grammar nazi. It was just a little hard for me to read your post and replies.

I completely agree with the premise of having a list of vendors who really do test for contaminants while simultaneously accounting for price. Idk how much of them would be fraudsters or legit. However, I do think that pushing vendors to go that route would make public perception towards kratom become less negative and therefore, less likely to be flat out banned. I really don't see what's so wrong with wanting this. Yes there are bad people who would take advantage of this as a marketing ploy. Yes, this would weed out the smaller vendors (which in all honesty there are too fucking many of them). But also, I think we need to look at the bigger picture here and realize that testing for contaminants or having some kind of agreed upon standards to assure the quality of the product "legitimizes" the kratom industry in the sense that people would take us more seriously and consequently widening the support for it to stay legal. The AKA is sort of going in the right direction, but I'm not sure how legit it is since vendors such as mitra gaia are on the list lol. Just my two cents

[beathappening]

Brandon, not trying to be a dick, but dude it would really help if you used some kind of punctuation, like a period for a complete sentence. I don't want to be some grammar nazi. It was just a little hard for me to read your post and replies.

Oh man, compared to some other people on this forum, Brandon's post is a Master's thesis.

[kratomandmath]

Brandon, not trying to be a dick, but dude it would really help if you used some kind of punctuation, like a period for a complete sentence. I don't want to be some grammar nazi. It was just a little hard for me to read your post and replies.

Oh man, compared to some other people on this forum, Brandon's post is a Master's thesis.

Lol that's fair. I don't want it to seem that takes away from what Brandon is saying because I agree with him. Was just little hard to follow at first.

[brandon allen]

I'm sure many would be frauds. it would eventually weed out one way or another. I hardly think about the punctuation and usually use my phone which somehow makes it feel less natural to click there idk not taking it as you being a dick I see how annoying it can be. idk I think it's a fairly good idea but it seems others took off and ran with something else on here and didn't like it so whatever