Quick Taper - out of necessity!

[KrateAndVape]

3+ year daily user... Haven't taken a break for several months... Possibly close to a year. I started taking Kratom for anxiety, depression, sleep and occasional pain. Lately I've been needing to take it more for pain than anything else. Over the past couple of months, back pain has become more of a problem for me... especially nearing the end of the day / evening / into the night. In retrospect, as my total daily amount consumption has increased, so has my pain... which has been a totally new experience / road block for me. Therefore, as my amount increased, so did my pain. The more pain, the higher the amount. The higher the amount, the more pain... A double-edged sword, so to speak. It took me awhile to figure out, a BREAK IS NECESSARY!

Fast forward, I'm into day #3 of what's become a fast-taper. In a matter of 24 hours, I went from 20 - 28 grams (a couple times I hit 30... No bueno... for me, at least!)... 23 grams daily on average... to 12 grams (3 x 4g). Already my pain is SIGNIFICANTLY better! I consider myself very blessed to not be experiencing any MAJOR withdrawal symptoms... except for oncoming "cold-like" symptoms and foggyness in the morning before my first dose of the day.

The current plan is to transition from this "fast" taper into a slower-ish taper at this lower daily dosage, adjusting accordingly. Days 1 and 2 were 12 grams. So far today I've dosed twice... 4g then 3. I'm hoping I can get away with one final 4g dose today (this evening), for a total of 11. I'll most likely drop 1 gram every two or three days until I feel like I can get through a day without dosing at all. After a while, I'll either attempt to quit entirely or start again at a lower daily dose (like I've done in the past after a break).

This "more Kratom, more pain, more pain, more Kratom" rabbit hole I started to experience kinda' freaked me out. So, depending on how / if I can change my lifestyle, this MIGHT be it for me with Kratom. Time will tell.

Has anyone else experienced what I have where one of the very symptoms you once took Kratom for has actually, over time and higher totals, increased your symptoms? Just goes to show ya', we need to be careful... and smart.

[herbalhippie]

There's a word for that very thing and I can't think of it right off hand. It can happen with all opioids. Where they work for a period of time and then they actually make your pain worse. I'll probably think of the word in the next couple hours and come back and post it but yeah, and it's definitely a thing.

[herbalhippie]

Hyperalgesia

[KrateAndVape]

Hyperalgesia

You've seem to hit the nail on the head, Hippie. Thank you! At least there's a term for it and I don't seem to be the only person to have ever experienced it. I'm convinced now that a quick taper, or at least staying at a lower daily total for a while, is the right thing for me.

"Drug tolerance is different from hyperalgesia, where increasing pain medication will not reduce the amount of pain a person feels. Sometimes, increasing the pain medication makes the person's pain worse." - https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318791.php

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... eralgesia/

Doing a search for "kratom hyperalgesia" confirmed my suspicion and the descriptions match the term you came up with exactly. Thanks again, HH!

[demafrost]

Out of curiosity, is this one of those things where once you start getting these types of effects with regards to pain that it can never go back to how it was, or would taking 3,6,9+ months off bring you back to baseline?

Luckily I don't take it kratom for chronic pain but I really feel for those that rely on substances for pain management that sometimes get wonky and stop working.

[herbalhippie]

KrateAndVape, good luck on getting your dose down and keeping it down. Less is more! <3

[KrateAndVape]

Out of curiosity, is this one of those things where once you start getting these types of effects with regards to pain that it can never go back to how it was, or would taking 3,6,9+ months off bring you back to baseline?

I don't know, Dema. I guess I'll find out eventually. In my limited understanding, I would hope after some time off, my receptors will "repair" themselves and Kratom may start working like it once did. I'm not going to rely on that though.

The weird thing is, I started trying CBD a month or so ago, and that's when the pain got real bad. I stopped using CBD because I thought maybe I was some type of weirdo that CBD had the opposite effects on. But I couldn't find anyone else with the same issue. So, I narrowed it down to Kratom and with the info that HH gave me, it makes much more sense now. When / if I'm totally off of Kratom, I'll probably give CBD another try and see what happens.

So far so good with the taper though... I'm on Day #4 and down to 11 grams / day. Evenings / nights are the worst with pain, but it's not overwhelming like it was last week. On a scale of 1-10, my worst at night is about a 5 or a 6 now, as opposed to 8 or 9 when I was taking approx. 23 grams daily. I'll probably transition down to 10 grams later this week and go from there. No major withdrawals to speak of, but I've had back-to-back nights where I havn't gotten to sleep until about 4am. That's probably part of the WD, but I'm hoping to break that cycle tonight... I hope. Will update later in the week or if anything major happens / discovered.

[Payshince]

This is very interesting.

Krateandvape,

Are you vaping CBD or, how are you using it?

I was getting more anxiety when I first started using CBD and it’s almost as if it was a placebo side effect like I’m still not quite sure. But it did happen half a dozen times or so and this was with using capsules with the oil in them, NO THC.*
I started vaping CBD lately and it is sooo much better. Way more efficient! For me at least.

Anyway, yes Ive heard of things like this with Pain and Opioids. And yes that Fkng sucks it really does so yeah maybe just giving yourself a break every 3 months or so bcuz maybe your body and mind are just working in overtime so much that the pain is catching up with you regardless? Just speculation but I’m sure we could all find some good Articles relating to this matter. Maybe not Kratom as we know still under the radar when it comes to Trials and testing... but in regards to the receptors and what not.
I do not know the specifics in regards to the Brain and what types are impacted when Pain is present and for Mitragyna Speciosa but I’m hopeful someone here will enlighten You and Us all.
And...
Keep up the Taper!
This is excellent to hear and know there are options and silver linings so stay mindful and consistent with your endeavors!

[KrateAndVape]

This is very interesting.

Krateandvape,

Are you vaping CBD or, how are you using it?

I was getting more anxiety when I first started using CBD and it’s almost as if it was a placebo side effect like I’m still not quite sure. But it did happen half a dozen times or so and this was with using capsules with the oil in them, NO THC.*
I started vaping CBD lately and it is sooo much better. Way more efficient! For me at least.

...

And...
Keep up the Taper!
This is excellent to hear and know there are options and silver linings so stay mindful and consistent with your endeavors!

Payshince, When I've tried / used CBD, I vape it. I've used 1000mg ejuice CBD and also made my own ejuice with isolate CBD. both had the same results, unfortunately. Not any noticeable benefits and the increase in pain (although I don't know if I can totally blame that on CBD until I totally wean myself off of Kratom).

Thank so such much for the kind words and support! You have no idea how much I appreciate it!

[gubasmark]

It's weird, the longer one uses Kratom the more the phrase "Less is more" applies. It's amazing how much I use to take in the morning or in the middle of the night just get back to normal. In other words, avoid the withdraw. I use to have kilo's upon kilo's stored and a very good job. Then I lost that very good job and i went through my kratom quickly. I would take it when I didn't really need to take it. I figured this out when I ran out and had to learn to get by with 30 grams every three to four days which I hated. But it taught me how small an amount I could actually get by on. I had to make sure those 30 grams of Kratom were above average in potency though. I couldn't eat as much because it interfered with absorption significantly. I always have to have an empty stomach when I take it or it's almost a waste. I also use a couple of potentiators that make a drastic difference in length of burn time etc. for me. I'm grateful that I learned the lesson though. Another thing I learned is that when I use to come across an excellent strain I would blow right through it. Now when I come across a special strain I use it sparingly. It makes a huge difference for me.