So about shilling....

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:56 pm

I understand there is a rule to not accuse people of shilling... but what’s stopping vendors from doing this? We HAVE to expect that this will happen.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:10 pm

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:23 pm

I’m saying, while I agree with the sentiment of “don’t accuse people of shilling”, it’s also impossible to ignore that this creates an environment for shillers to thrive. If I was a kratom vendor trying to pay my rent with sales, I would CERTAINLY utilize a comprehensive shilling strategy.

I guess there isn’t much to be done... but I’m starting to loose faith in this site. Many times I’ve bought stuff that was recommended as “10/10 kratom!” Only to get wobbles from 2 grams or not feel anything at all from higher doses. Ive been recommended to buy complete horseshit over and over.

Actually, I have yet to find a recommendation for kratom I truly think is 9/10 or higher. Very frustrating experience so far... I suppose this is jut a rant but I wanted to see what people think about the issue. SURELY it happens a lot on a website that outlaws any scrutiny of genuiness.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:33 pm

What have you bought that you feel doesn't meet up to your (or others) expectations? Just curious. Vendor and strain.

Post by **herbalhippie** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:40 pm

I can't speak for any one else but when I see a post that could possibly be shilling I just ignore it. Maybe laugh a bit.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Just saw an excellent review for Bunny Botanicals’ green Vietnam by a very new user. I got the same stuff a couple days ago and it’s extremely mediocre and slightly nauseating.

Enhanciosa is still a site sponsored vendor, but I went through 6 DOG SHIT strains very recently. I’ll probably throw out most of it.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:47 pm

Yeah, me too hippie. I can see straight through that shit. Call it a gift. Also, some people are at least affiliated with vendors as well. Their buddies or something. I know who is for real and who to listen to. Listen to labdog. He knows kratom inside out. Listen to gumby. He studies the shit. Listen to hippie. Shes got, as she calls it, "a metric shit ton" from every vendor known to man in her closet. The voices to be listened to are out there for sure, just don't listen to EVERYONE because you're right, some people are just shilling.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:49 pm

Yeaaa I’m starting to get better at spotting I guess... I hope. Honestly I’m going to stick to pm’ing Users who seem genuine.

But let’s not be naive here, why wouldn’t people shill on a website that’s very popular and outlaws shilling accusations?!

It’s most likely wide spread.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:52 pm

Ok. Botanical Bunny is widely regarded as both one of the oldest and one of the best vendors around. Anyone will tell you that. We've ALL had some good Botanical Bunny stuff. Enhanciosa...different story. Everything I've tried from them is mediocre at best. Overrated for sure.

Post by **herbalhippie** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:12 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:Just saw an excellent review for Bunny Botanicals’ green Vietnam by a very new user. I got the same stuff a couple days ago and it’s extremely mediocre and slightly nauseating.
.

Keep in mind that because of how kratom is, one man's bunk could possibly be another mans' fire. Not always, but occasionally. There are a whole lot of variables.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:15 pm

Yuuup I was expecting to catch some flack for merely giving my own review.

Y’all know that negative reviews are also important to have, right? These vendors don’t grow the kratom, it isn’t personal. This is the realm which kratom exists.

This is another reason why I may leave this website behind. Invalidating negative reviews should also be outlawed. Doesn’t benefit anyone.

Post by **®eddit®efugee** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:16 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:Just saw an excellent review for Bunny Botanicals’ green Vietnam by a very new user. I got the same stuff a couple days ago and it’s extremely mediocre and slightly nauseating.

Enhanciosa is still a site sponsored vendor, but I went through 6 DOG SHIT strains very recently. I’ll probably throw out most of it.

I haven't tried this yet but can you try to red bubble it?

Otherwise, when I have shitty kratom I try to save it all up and do some extract experiments. They pretty much always fail but one of these days I'll do it right!!!

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:18 pm

mivanqua wrote:Ok. Botanical Bunny is widely regarded as both one of the oldest and one of the best vendors around. Anyone will tell you that. We've ALL had some good Botanical Bunny stuff. Enhanciosa...different story. Everything I've tried from them is mediocre at best. Overrated for sure.

Why does Enhanciosa still enjoy the sponsorship then? Jesus Christ, that’s low hanging fruit to help people out. Stop pointing users in the direction of bullshit.

Post by **herbalhippie** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:24 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:Yuuup I was expecting to catch some flack for merely giving my own review.

Y’all know that negative reviews are also important to have, right? These vendors don’t grow the kratom, it isn’t personal. This is the realm which kratom exists.

This is another reason why I may leave this website behind. Invalidating negative reviews should also be outlawed. Doesn’t benefit anyone.

I don't think anyone here is giving you flack. I know I wasn't.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:32 pm

Nor was I. The only BB I've had is verde I got in a trade with FH before...well...and it was pretty, pretty good. I think hippie also sent me a sample before that which is why I made it part of the trade. He wasn't offering much, so....but I've never BOUGHT anything first hand from them. Enhansiosa...I got a full spectrum Jong kong blend in a sampler from c_c and I saved it for a special occasion because I thought it was going to be AWESOME, but as it turns out, it.was a total dud. I've heard great things as well about enhansiosa. You should buy from the trading post (although it's been stagnant lately, seems like) because people make samplers of their BEST LEAF. I've never bought a sampler I didn't find at least half very enjoyable. Just a thought.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:34 pm

Sorry if i misunderstood. Internet makes it hard to read tone.

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:17 pm

mivanqua wrote:Nor was I. The only BB I've had is verde I got in a trade with FH before...well...and it was pretty, pretty good. I think hippie also sent m......

Thanks for the advice! I’ll check it out

Post by **CatfatherB** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:29 pm

The fact that everyone is different makes it hard to tell if recommendations made my someone will work for you, I've heard people say that SOSA leaf didn't do anything for them but his stuff works awesome for me, I've tried stuff from Enhansiosa and Liza's that didn't do nothing for me but I wouldn't say they don't have quality for someone else knowing what we know about how vendors source kratom? It's always a good idea to start small and buy more of what works for YOU....most of my favorite batches never got rave reviews but I love em'.

Post by **brave777** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:01 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:I understand there is a rule to not accuse people of shilling... but what’s stopping vendors from doing this? We HAVE to expect that this will happen.

Well, i say what i experience and always did here on this forum. And your opinion counts too, dont be afraid to point out what doesn't work for you... Me personally, i never got anything from BB because it was mixed messages and i don't want to be one of them ending up with more bunk trying to hunt fire. Not going to lie, 50% sosa didnt work for me and 50% worked, no matter how excited i was for string dried some reasons my expectation fell short. But that doesn't mean sosa has bad or bunk kratom, there is gems inside and there some i still use and love. Haven't tried recent sosa but i am sure there some new gems as well. Its just i have enough ok kratom or decent, but we always hunting above average, Mitra and TFH has worked for me very well, and i noticed i lean to use them more then other vendors because to me its more above average, and all i need is above average. I don't get this rating system, 10/10 could be 5/10 for another person, maybe we should just rate it above average? But TFH what i like is he invest time into process and dry stuff which makes me excited for the future purchase i might make. There is tons of vendors popping up, i think what we are getting into is vendors who know they have above average will be here and on this forum, and i want them to be here. I am sure off this forum alone they dont need other customer base. I like a lot what TFH has done, and any vendor does the same will also be my top pick. Whats so hard for a vendor to spend time with the source and gets pics, videos and some process they do? I am sure all leaf lovers would love to see that and invest money. Instead new vendors popping up, fire here and fire there, next thing you know you end up not liking it and you know nothing about the vendor and his source how they process leaf. When a vendor invest time to share knowledge and learn from their source they invest into us as well, our $ , that's should be obvious.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:16 pm

CatfatherB wrote:The fact that everyone is different makes it hard to tell if recommendations made my someone will work for you, I've heard people say that SOSA leaf didn't do anything for them but his stuff works awesome for me, I've tried stuff from Enhansiosa and Liza's that didn't do nothing for me but I wouldn't say they don't have quality for someone else knowing what we know about how vendors source kratom? It's always a good idea to start small and buy more of what works for YOU....most of my favorite batches never got rave reviews but I love em'.

I try to find people who have a SIMILAR body chemistry as me. c_c and I seem to be on the same page to some degree based on how she describes a certain leaf affects her and comparing. Labdog is always pretty right on for my chemistry as well. Hippie and I share a somewhat similar body chemistry, but yellows fall short to me where they shine with her...generally. FireK is usually right on with recommendations. Jabro is pretty close. It takes work, and even in the anonymous forum that this is, matches to your body chemistry CAN be found. Again, it takes work, but it's worth it, no doubt. NONE of those I mentioned are shills. Just consumers out to get the same thing as me. Decent leaf in an indecent industry (for the most part, as we've found out through gumby.)

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Body chemistry huh? I dunno about that. The stuff in kratom aren’t nutrients, giving people benefits if they are low on them. They are psychoactive alkaloids. They either do something or they don’t. I agree that different people are looking for different effects in a plant such as kratom that can have a wide range of effects, but I dunno if I agree with this theory body chemistry.

Edit: don’t mean to sound argumentative, just wanna have a conversation about it. Enlighten me if I’m wrong, please

Post by **acejestyr15** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:27 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:Body chemistry huh? I dunno about that. The stuff in kratom aren’t nutrients, giving people benefits if they are low on them. They are psychoactive alkaloids. They either do something or they don’t. I agree that different people are looking for different effects in a plant such as kratom that can have a wide range of effects, but I dunno if I agree with this theory body chemistry.

Edit: don’t mean to sound argumentative, just wanna have a conversation about it. Enlighten me if I’m wrong, please

Body chemistry isn't a theory.... It's a fact, sorry!! Unfortunately, it makes things more complicated/difficult but it's just how it is. Both mivanqua and catfather are totally right in their viewpoints! I wouldn't find some people that you seem to have similar chemistry with and go from there.... Until you can get behind that train of thought you just may continue falling a bit short of what you're looking for my friend.

Post by **Luk3** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:42 pm

BB has had some nice leaf this past year. The PMD lot 12 1907 is one of my goto PMDs and I know the lot 14 PMD were awesome as well. the gold and MD 12 were very nice too. If you aren’t getting good results, keep trying. I have had many types that on the first couple tries were duds and after a few uses they became some of my favorites.
Body chemistry does play a huge role, some will have differing effects from certain types of leaf, so you really have to figure out what works for you. The advice to find a similar chemistry to yours and follow their reviews is an important part of the puzzle to finding great leaf that fits you.

Post by **mivanqua** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:11 pm

Hhazard20 wrote: They either do something or they don't...

That's just it because sometimes they DO do something and sometimes they don't. Same batch, same strain, same everything. Sometimes something doesn't work for.you and suddenly does, and conversely, sometimes something does not work for you and suddenly it does. How else could this phenomenon possibly be explained? I wouldn't throw any of that leaf away. Try it again down the road. You may also be taking too much. I don't remember if you said your dose, but try cutting your dose in half a d having another go at it.

Post by **CatfatherB** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:33 pm

mivanqua wrote:
Hhazard20 wrote: They either do something or they don't...
That's just it because sometimes they DO do something and sometimes they don't. Same batch, same strain, same everything. Sometimes something doesn't work for.you and suddenly does, and conversely, sometimes something does not work for you and suddenly it does. How else could this phenomenon possibly be explained? I wouldn't throw any of that leaf away. Try it again down the road. You may also be taking too much. I don't remember if you said your dose, but try cutting your dose in half a d having another go at it.

Exactly, I have killer batches that won't work everyday? Even if your stash is full of FIRE leaf! Most of the time when kratom don't work for me, it's my fault for over indulging the day before, not the leaf?

Post by **swablero** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:19 pm

A lot of real wisdom and experience talking in these responses and this topic doesn't get enough attention.

There is some outright shilling once in a while. Usually, you can tell somethings up by the low post count. Though good quality leaf can still be "shilled". There is also this phenomenon where vendors give out samples in exchange for reviews and not to overly generalize but these reviews are subject to bias, conscious or unconscious. The point about "body chemistry" is crucial. Gumby's recent post documenting the spectrum of sincere responses for a particular leaf should be taken seriously. Not only that but people take the leaf for different reasons. To use the simplest case, there are people who need pain relief and there are people who look for a mood boost. Only the very best leaf would satisfy both of them. This is the simplest example. Related to this is the issue of dosage and tolerance. But this is yet another way to say the leaf works differently for different people.

People come here looking for an "expert" opinion but it's not that easy. You have to be careful. Know your reviewer and know yourself. There are varying levels of experience out there. For example, Jabro, Instant Karma and FireK bring a very mature perspective but they like a particular kind of leaf. You could even follow them and be disappointed. Don't chase every superlative and think its gonna be a sure thing. Like people have said finding the right leaf for you personally is real work. I realized a while ago that ultimately the decision to buy is totally the buyer's responsibility and no sense second-guessing reviews. Learning to buy kratom well is a real art.

Hhazard20 wrote:Why does Enhanciosa still enjoy the sponsorship then? Jesus Christ, that’s low hanging fruit to help people out. Stop pointing users in the direction of bullshit.

Hhazard "sponsorship" is not an endorsement or any kind of statement about the quality of the leaf. The people who run this forum need to be vendor-neutral. A "sponsor" makes a significant contribution to the costs involved in running this forum and gets to put a post up in the vendor section. The vendor is sponsoring the forum the forum isnt sponsoring the vendor. The kratom business is very much a season to season, batch to batch, individual to individual thing and absolutes just don't hold.

Post by **Ezriderx2x** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:34 pm

Hhazard20 wrote: Y’all know that negative reviews are also important to have, right? These vendors don’t grow the kratom, it isn’t personal. This is the realm which kratom exists.

The fine line of negative reviews.

I have said the exact same thing on multiple platforms. I see why we focus on the positive, but are we fulfilling the intention of this forum by doing half the duty? If we had a mixture of positive and negative reviews, it would surely be easier to see who's body chem you match with easier..

All good thoughts in here and we'll said Swab. Double M was a crucial stepping stone for me, and still has useful info for sure once you pull out the weeds.

Post by **Greyfeather** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:43 pm

I have a fair collection of leaf that did not work for me; whereas other folks loved it.

Substances like alcohol (and prescription drugs) TEND to have fairly consistent effects on consumers, but it would be irresponsible to claim that we all react the same way to everything all of the time.

If you are extremely unsatisfied why not take it to the source? Contact the vendor; let them know you are dissatisfied. Our current culture, unfortunately, is doing little to reassure us that anyone gives a damn after they've been 'paid'. I don't think complaining about a vendor, if you feel justified, would necessarily be calling someone a "shill." I would contact them privately first. If that vendor wants to reach out and defend their practices they can do that too. I have seen this happen many times in the reviews sections. If they don't give a damn about your buying experience or their product, that's what the "reviews" forum is for.

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:32 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:... It’s also impossible to ignore that this creates an environment for shillers to thrive. If I was a kratom vendor trying to pay my rent with sales, I would CERTAINLY utilize a comprehensive shilling strategy.

Absolutely. I've stated my opinion.. Double MM could use a little more Monitoring & Management. Double MM. But time is money, sure.. I get the No Censorship thing.. #1 guiding principle here, however - there's a downside to wide-open shit-posting with $ involved?

I mean, the MAJORITY of posts here seem to be, spending money $ at vendors... Where to Buy. OK Then.. unlike Facebook, it's totally anonymous - Open invitation for fake accounts/ phoney "Reviews". How often does that happen? Too often IMO

Post by **mitragiriffic** » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:45 am

UPDATE

A 4day old account review of something I got from BB and didn't agree with raised my suspicions, and I think rationally so, all things considered, but honestly the rest of the strains I got are pretty damn decent. Ill try and write up a proper review shortly of the 5 strains i got.

The last thing I want to do is accuse decent people of being deceitful and i'm sorry if I gave anyone that impression. Quality kratom can be such a crap shoot sometimes and it gets frustrating. I suppose this is to be expected in an unregulated market like it is.

Post by **e_poison** » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:22 pm

A good burn depends on a lot of things - a good night's sleep, balanced diet, regular exercise, general health, etc. I find the better you feel, the better the burn will be.

Also, it's true that what works for some will not work for others. I like a certain vendor that I see get slammed here often, but they always work great for me. I also see certain strains get praised, that do nothing for me. So, it's really subjective.

As for the shilling rule, it's in place for a reason and I feel like a broken record at this point. Everyone deserves a chance to have their review read without being harassed, regardless of post count. Remember, we all started with 1 post. This question is for all - How would you have been liked to be a called shill on your first review?

This isn't to say we are blind. We have removed many "reviews" over time which are just smear campaigns. These benefit nobody and are removed or locked quickly. Which leads me to my next point...

BallzDeep9 wrote:Double MM could use a little more Monitoring & Management.

I disagree. 99% of what we do is behind the scenes and silent, as it should be. We've caught MANY shills/spammers/trolls before things got out control - hell, before anyone even sees them. When we do our job right, you won't even know we're here. We don't make a big show out of any of it. But, we are always vigilant. It may seem sometimes we don't act immediately, but we are always watching and evaluating situations. I can't list the specific criteria we look in the blatant shill reviews because then it could be gamed, but trust me, we take it extremely seriously.

So the next time you see a "questionable" thread, chances are very high we already know about it and are determining the course of action.

Post by **Zeniotuten** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:01 am

Priceless thread folks. Simply priceless. This is quality info at best.. This is what double m is all about.. Thanks!

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:32 am

e_poison wrote:... 99% of what we do is behind the scenes and silent, as it should be. We've caught MANY shills/ spammers/ trolls before things got out control - hell, before anyone even sees them. When we do our job right, you won't even know we're here.

Thanks. For everything! I can only imagine. Lets face it many visitors are here for a commercial purpose.. Well, at least no serious hacking or ddos attacks. That we're aware of anyway lol -

Congrats on the success of MM!! All kinds of folks have found help, here.. even those Lurkers. I'm happy for them, too!

Post by **beathappening** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:33 am

If you're ever looking for help around the forum I'd be happy to do part-time maintenance or grunt work so you guys can focus on the Shillls and whatnot. You can bet it's only going to get worst from here. Exhibit a: the 15 + TFH threads created in the last week

Post by **Greyfeather** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:38 am

I disagree. 99% of what we do is behind the scenes and silent, as it should be. We've caught MANY shills/spammers/trolls before things got out control - hell, before anyone even sees them. When we do our job right, you won't even know we're here. We don't make a big show out of any of it. But, we are always vigilant. It may seem sometimes we don't act immediately, but we are always watching and evaluating situations. I can't list the specific criteria we look in the blatant shill reviews because then it could be gamed, but trust me, we take it extremely seriously.

Yes. Thank you

I don't think I have seen any site run so well. In particular, the fairness of the Mods stands out to me. I have left popular forums because even asking a simple question/ challenging an opinion could bring down the ban-hammer threat.

We are very lucky here. And for the OP, I hope the input was helpful. Sometimes we just need to vent a little; thank goodness we can

Post by **jabro70** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:43 pm

Hhazard20 wrote:Body chemistry huh? I dunno about that. The stuff in kratom aren’t nutrients, giving people benefits if they are low on them. They are psychoactive alkaloids. They either do something or they don’t. I agree that different people are looking for different effects in a plant such as kratom that can have a wide range of effects, but I dunno if I agree with this theory body chemistry.

Edit: don’t mean to sound argumentative, just wanna have a conversation about it. Enlighten me if I’m wrong, please

On the surface it would seem that Kratom has only a couple of alkaloids that really do anything and I can see why you would feel that way. I think it’s been proven that one of those alkaloids (7Ohm) is pretty much nonexistent in most of the leaf we buy so that would further support that claim.
The fact is there are really a multitude of alkaloids at work here - but it seems that mitra is the only one that gets much credit. Kratom is a COLLECTION of active alkaloids in varying levels. I’m not a chemist or doctor, so I won’t use their jargon, but in the simplest form, some of the alkaloids enhance desired effects while some attenuate them. There are an almost infinite number of possible combinations of all these alkaloid levels in a particular strain (or “batch”). Sometimes you get just the right balance of alkaloids and you have a phenomenal burn and then sometimes something is going on with your body where you don’t absorb one or more of those alkaloids at the same perfect balanced rate.
Some people may absorb some of these alkaloids better than others. They may get their perfect balance of alkaloids from an entirely different batch. And to throw another “subjective” variable in the mix - some people use Kratom for energy, some for anxiety, some for pain relief, etc, etc.

Body Chemistry and subjectivity would make a great thread subject and I’m sure you would get a lot more info and probably better explanations than I gave.

Post by **acejestyr15** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:02 pm

beathappening wrote:If you're ever looking for help around the forum I'd be happy to do part-time maintenance or grunt work so you guys can focus on the Shillls and whatnot. You can bet it's only going to get worst from here. Exhibit a: the 15 + TFH threads created in the last week

The TFH threads are most likely going to be very legit with everyone here ordering for the Black Friday opening Gumby and and wife had. In which, I myself, did surely jump on and am rather happy I did. Great leaf, and great service honestly!

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:20 pm

acejestyr15 wrote:The TFH threads are most likely going to be very legit with everyone here ordering for the Black Friday opening Gumby ...

Totally. Any "regular" here, should know TFH is a phenomenon, we're lucky to have, and grew organically as a result of Gumby Sample offers.. for anyone who didn't participate? beathappening? Get on board, its the real deal!

Post by **instantKARMA** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:46 pm

BallzDeep9 wrote:
acejestyr15 wrote:The TFH threads are most likely going to be very legit with everyone here ordering for the Black Friday opening Gumby ...
Totally. Any "regular" here, should know TFH is a phenomenon, we're lucky to have, and grew organically as a result of Gumby Sample offers.. for anyone who didn't participate? beathappening? Get on board, its the real deal!

Mr. BallzzzZz, swablero and acejestyr15 nailed it and I'm totally with them!

I've been doing this for a long time and I've found TFH leaf is amazingly consistent and the quality
is OUTSTANDING!

Look at the number of DoubleM regulars that have given their assessments
and you won't find a shill among them.

When I encounter a vendor that deserves a shout out, I do it based solely on the attributes of the leaf and
the service provided by the vendor. That being said, Gumby's leaf is excellent and his customer service
is as good as any of our other favorite vendors! We're all very fortunate to have had the opportunity to
sample and test TFH products!

No shill intended!

Post by **gumbyke1** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:11 pm

beathappening wrote:If you're ever looking for help around the forum I'd be happy to do part-time maintenance or grunt work so you guys can focus on the Shillls and whatnot. You can bet it's only going to get worst from here. Exhibit a: the 15 + TFH threads created in the last week

I want to go on record and say that I am probably the only vendor who asks that the feedback be submitted privately via an online survey. I can't help (nor do I mind) if people on their own accord decide to publically share their experience. We put an insane amount of effort into what we do, the support from this community helps refill our energy tanks. Much appreciated!