Rotation? Not so Fast.

[fusedflora]

I’ve spoke towards a good deal of methods to combat tolerance issues, such as hirsuta, javanica, other botanicals, or interactions with supplements. However, I’m seeing more and more interesting things that I’m getting questions about and want to help folks a bit concerning leaf rotation.

This is important, as I get a lot of "This leaf just isn't working, how can I reduce doses?" Or "Vendor XXX stuff is sooo good, but doesn't hit anymore." After some context, most of the time it is folks just not being diligent in rotating. If one only gets leaf from Borneo, they'll have more tolerance towards leaf with similar profiles.

A recent question I’ve received is “Do you carry bones so I can add to my rotation?” On the surface it’s a simple question; but a bit harder to answer. Bones in Malaysian is the literal translation to the stems of the leaf. In traditional preparation, “bones” are just leaves that have not had the stem and vein removed. So what’s the difference in stem and vein and “bones”? In my experience, speaking, to at least thirty Indo vendors on the preparation of “bones” strains, there’s no difference. What one traditionally thinks of as stem and vein is just been renamed to “bones” in most cases. Perhaps it’s easier for the Indonesians to describe this way, or just an English-speaking vendor that didn’t interpret it well.

Most string dried methods use the stems to tie upward, and most Indonesian suppliers I’ve spoke to consider these “bones” as they weren’t stripped like most their rack dried batches. Obviously, some suppliers string dry using a line through the leaf, these may not be “bones” to many.

I think less important is the “bones” question, more important is where does your “bones” come from so it’s alkaloid profile (not just mitra and 7ohm, but the other alks) is different from other offerings you have? Hold this thought, I'll discuss why in a moment.

What about “milk” strains of light/dark? From my discussions with Indonesians that prepare it, these are typically their regular strains, just more exposed/less exposed to light. Better question would be how do the soil/environmental conditions promote a differing alkaloid profile than your other offerings?

I find this question and the above to be a huge issue for consumers. Instead of just receiving a traditional Hulu, consumers may be receiving a Hulu, a stem and vein"bones" Hulu, a Hulu that’s been in the sun more "milk/light green", another regular Hulu labeled "plantation", a Hulu thats very green labeled "hulk," and a Hulu dried inside more "dark green." Oh, I forgot to mention the large Hulu leaves "elephant" and the super pointy ones "horned/dragon". If one thinks they’re getting a bunch of strains from a vendor to be able to rotate, they’re not in most cases. Quite the opposite I’d argue. I feel like Morpheus saying this... What if I told you some vendors have 5 out of 12 greens that are exactly the same...? Obviously, there are plenty of exceptions, but generally this holds true.

If a vendor’s Maeng Da, Borneo, and Elephant all come from the same harvest and the same farm, are the alkaloid profiles much different? Now that’s an extremely difficult question to answer, as I doubt anyone has tested a full alkaloid profile to prove/disprove this; it’s cost prohibitive in most cases. However, what I would say is that the probability of the alkaloid profile to be different from a Red Sumatra, actually from Sumatra, and a Red Hulu, actually from Hulu would be much more different than the same farm/same harvest Red Sumatra and Hulu or Milk Hulu and Elephant Hulu from one farm/one harvest. This could be easily proven with mitra/7ohm levels. If you’re actually building a rotation, probability is it would be a better option to have leaf from different farms in different areas.

Another excellent thing to consider is rainy/dry season leaf. I often hear, “I only buy dry season leaf!” I know Gumbyke, wrote some about this, but folks still seem to believe that rainy season leaf is inferior for some reason. Certainly some Indonesian suppliers struggle to properly dry during rainy season, but most of the good suppliers have overcome this. For example, I’ve had leaves from the same trees from a rainy harvest and from a dry. And while yes, their mitra/7ohm profiles were slightly different, both were fire leaf and excellent. I’m certain other alkaloids affect this and impact the one with lower mitra for us to perceive it's just as good as the one with higher. Perhaps the differing alkaloid profile assists in keeping tolerance low, as I've had low mitra ones slam in ways higher mitra ones can’t. I cannot prove the composite alkaloid profiles do this, as again, it would be cost prohibitive, but probability is that rainy/dry season has different alkaloid profiles that would in all likelihood assist better for rotating rather one farm/one harvest. I would say rainy seasons leaf is perhaps just as important in a rotation as dry season leaf, as long as it works well for you.

This is why Double M, Mewe, and other small craft leaf suppliers are important. The mass produced farm stuff can wreck tolerance and rotations, even when one thinks they're rotating. Ask you vendor where they get their leaf from, how many suppliers, and in what season/area. It's important to know and understand this to help properly rotate.

[MycatTimmy]

Thanks Shaun. That’s really informative. It answers questions that I had but didn’t know quite how to phrase but things are finally clicking together now. Being a newbie I can never get enough of this site. Everyone who contributes to this site teachs me something
I’ve bought a million sample packs from you and have enjoyed every one. Plus your customer service is top notch. You were the first vendor I bought from after moving away from head shop Kratom.

[Luk3]

Very informative. Thanks for posting Shaun!
If more people knew this information, I feel like they could much more readily mitigate stagnant strain syndrome.

[jabro70]

Thanks Shaun for posting this. I’m in agreement concerning “rainy season” vs “dry season” leaf. I have some really kick-ass rainy season strains in my collection.

[fusedflora]

Glad you guys enjoyed the read. I hope it helps.

I received a PM after posting this and decided to give another good example. Say Gumby has a vendor and I use his neighbor. You get some super green and red hulu from Gumby, and some red Bali (blend) and a green hulu from me. If all harvested around the same time, the probability of the alkaloid profiles being similar on all four strains would be high. Best for your rotation if you integrated some actual Thai, Malay, or Sumatra, as the probability of their alkaloid profiles similar would be low.

This would be even worse if from the same supplier. I use this for example only to illustrate an example of a likely ineffective rotation.

[neuropathy1]

"Ask your vendor where they get their leaf from, how many suppliers, and in what season/area. It's important to know and understand this to help properly rotate."

Wouldn't it be great if vendors disclosed this information on their menus without us having to ask?

But, the problem is vendors want to keep their suppliers secret to protect their business from other vendors,

Furthermore, i feel some vendors dont give a rats ass where Kratom comes from and how its dried, and just call it whatever they want to name it. Fancy/catchy names impact consumers psychologically to buy more Kratom. For example, look at how craft beer has evolved.

[K-Dawg]

Great info fused! I have never dabbled with S&V for tolerance management. Sounds like i need to explore this option. Thanks for the great report and sharing your experience.

[GrannyJ62]

Great information I've got to get some Bones, really love the honest info.Thank You

[brave777]

Great information I've got to get some Bones, really love the honest info.Thank You

you should, i have some old sosa bones and i add 2 grams to any other vedor kratom and it blows everything out of the water. just having some stem makes so much difference in kratom standing out in effects. I usually do 3 any vendor and 2 bone or stem or 50% 50% and fires things up. at first i thought it was only some blends but it literally works with all blends. please test my theory. i think i am on to something.

[NEFbotanicals]

that's a good information, thanks a lot

[CatfatherB]

Great information I've got to get some Bones, really love the honest info.Thank You

you should, i have some old sosa bones and i add 2 grams to any other vedor kratom and it blows everything out of the water. just having some stem makes so much difference in kratom standing out in effects. I usually do 3 any vendor and 2 bone or stem or 50% 50% and fires things up. at first i thought it was only some blends but it literally works with all blends. please test my theory. i think i am on to something.

I got some batches from Appalachian herbs that doesn't have the bones removed..the ones I tried were really good, it seems like the s&v gives it a good full spectrum feel to them, imo...that's probably why I like SOSA'S string dried batches so well?

[BobDylanKratom]

Thank you for posting this, Shaun. I’m learning something new every time I come to these forums.

I agree with neuropathy1 that it would be super helpful if the consumer knew — for each vendor —where each strain came from. While batch numbers and dates are valuable pieces of information, as I buyer I don’t know whether your “4030220W” white leaf is anywhere near Vendor X’s “030920B” white. I also agree that many vendors don’t really care, though thanks to sites like this and MeWe I’ve learned to avoid vendors like this.

(Your 10-way split kilo was one of my favorite purchases in the past couple of months. Thanks for that, too!)

[fusedflora]

Thank you for posting this, Shaun. I’m learning something new every time I come to these forums.

I agree with neuropathy1 that it would be super helpful if the consumer knew — for each vendor —where each strain came from. While batch numbers and dates are valuable pieces of information, as I buyer I don’t know whether your “4030220W” white leaf is anywhere near Vendor X’s “030920B” white. I also agree that many vendors don’t really care, though thanks to sites like this and MeWe I’ve learned to avoid vendors like this.

(Your 10-way split kilo was one of my favorite purchases in the past couple of months. Thanks for that, too!)

Most won't share specific suppliers, but a vendor sharing a region shouldn't be a big deal. Just ask them.

[BobDylanKratom]

Most won't share specific suppliers, but a vendor sharing a region shouldn't be a big deal. Just ask them.

Thanks. I never thought to ask for some reason. Can I ask a serious follow up question? How does a vendor really know that the product is coming from the region that the supplier in Indo says it from? Or am I overly complicating things...

[fusedflora]

Most won't share specific suppliers, but a vendor sharing a region shouldn't be a big deal. Just ask them.

Thanks. I never thought to ask for some reason. Can I ask a serious follow up question? How does a vendor really know that the product is coming from the region that the supplier in Indo says it from? Or am I overly complicating things...

Most vendors get their kratom from middle men in Pontianak (Borneo). If this is the case, then there's no way to guarantee it as most the hustlers in Pontianak are not farmers and don't actually know much about the process. This isn't everyone, but most. If your vendor gets directly from a farm, it's likely that the region matches the name. Though Indonesians still like to market it differently. Your question is a good one, as I'd wager to say most vendors can't confirm exactly the region.... Again, you're on Double M and there are many exceptions here.

Vendors that have excellent relationships with Indonesians, have traveled there to see/build their business, almost always know for a fact that the leaf matches the region. The best can even tell you which area the harvest was from on the specific farm. Though not necessarily required, it's pretty easy to determine.

I'd advise that you should ask questions, but there's also a point where you have to trust the relationship. I trust my Budweiser is going to be a Budweiser, and trust my Fiji water is actually from Fiji. The companies have earned the label and respect. If a vendor can't answer generalized questions about how it was processed or are handling the kratom questionably (living room maeng da), I prob wouldn't order from them. You have to determine what you value in a vendor and find that.