How Does Less Is More Work?

[SaltnPeppa]

Hi everybody, I’ve been taking kratom for 2-2.5 years. I’m new to this forum though I’ve been a longtime lurker. For the longest time I was able to keep my doses low 1-2g 3x a day. Lately, however I’ve been taking like 6g 3x a day. I’ve heard people say “less is more” over and over again but when I’ve tried cutting my dose in half I get no effects. How much of my dose should I cut—30, 40, 50%? I’m wondering if I’m cutting too much or not enough. Any help is appreciated as I don’t want my tolerance going through the roof. Thanks in advance!

[ybanurse247]

I'm also still pretty new to Kratom (5 mo) but I've read and rec'd a LOT of info on the subject from all over the place. This is an awesome forum btw!! I believe if you wanna taper down to get to a more reasonable level you start cutting out about 0.5-1g for about a week or so then cut again and repeat until you are where you want to be. I may have that wrong but that's how I've understood the process to be. I think if you cut out too much too quickly you won't get results and even cutting a small amount you may not notice the same effects as usual but won't experience withdrawl symptoms either and that's the key here. Once your body adjusts on a specific dose where you're comfortable the effects will come back. Does that make sense?? I'm sure many more people will come through with advice on this. Good luck to you!!!

[mitragy9]

Less will sometimes work better because the opioids in kratom are partial μ-opioid agonist's meaning they will have a ceiling in the amount you can take before they stop working similar to buprenorphine(suboxone.) Kratom is also said to contain(not sure if it's been documented) natural opioid antagonists in much smaller amounts than the opioid agonists. So taking more and more would obviously start to remove the effects due to more of the antagonist compounds building and fighting over the μ-opioid receptor. Another thing that is known to happen with suboxone and I suspect kratom as well is staying at the same dosage for too long. This will result is less effects and simply changing the dosage(sometimes less or sometimes more) will result in much more prominent effects. It's different from regular tolerance buildup.

For tapering painlessly I recommend you cut your dosage only by .5 gram(500mg) every 4-7 days. This will be completely symptom-less and you may even notice it start to work much better after the first day or two. For me more usually = more effects I've tried lower doses but it just doesn't work for me(keep in mind I've abused pretty much every opiate/opioid under the sun) However there is def a point in where if I take more I will get less effects so the ceiling effect is true with kratom. Sometimes all you need to do is change the dosage to get better effects. This means possibly taking more..... just find what works for you. The less is more mantra is promoted too much imo kratom will never be this simply with dosages for people. Way to many factors at play here.

[Burninator]

Less will sometimes work better because the opioids in kratom are partial μ-opioid agonist's meaning they will have a ceiling in the amount you can take before they stop working similar to buprenorphine(suboxone.) Kratom is also said to contain(not sure if it's been documented) natural opioid antagonists in much smaller amounts than the opioid agonists. So taking more and more would obviously start to remove the effects due to more of the antagonist compounds building and fighting over the μ-opioid receptor. Another thing that is known to happen with suboxone and I suspect kratom as well is staying at the same dosage for too long. This will result is less effects and simply changing the dosage(sometimes less or sometimes more) will result in much more prominent effects. It's different from regular tolerance buildup.

This is all news to me. Thanks for sharing.

[Loveandpeace]

Let's not forget Stem and Vein, Hirsuta and the many other well worn strategies. Like ybanurse, I have about 8 months experience, but these have come up a lot...everywhere.

The idea is to supplement smaller doses of your favorite Kratom with equal or greater amount Hirsuta in the mix. Your body responds favorably to both while using less of your favorite.

Did that sum it up? Felt good writing it...still got it!! Anyway...

Loads of success stories, totally worth a search bar hour. Also, search Agmatine Sulfate, it's a fun trip down Nootropic Lane.

[BallzDeep9]

Kratom contains 40+ alkaloids. In addition to what's already been said, More Is Less ~ due to getting enough antagonist alkaloids in your system, with a large dose, to actually reverse the "good" effects... and cause a negative, withdrawal effect. So the guys doing 20+ GPD (depending on tolerance), are not only, hitting the ceiling, they are going backwards!! QUOTE: One of the takeaways is that the ceiling effect of Kratom is because the other alkaloids, called Paynantheine, Speciociliatine, and Speciogynine, limit the ability of mitragynine and 7-hydroxy-mitragynine to activate the mu receptor. - https://old.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... ety_other/

[the_spookiest]

There is a continuous discourse about ceiling effect regarding various kratom alkaloids, but I have yet to see any research pointing to where the ceiling is. My 20 GPD is not necessarily the ceiling, since adding more does not really usher in negative effects really. With Buprenorphine, the ceiling effect DOES have research behind it, and doctors are still having people taking 24 mg a day of suboxone which is ridiculous as the ceiling effect kicks in between 12 and 16 mg.

I would love to read anything that delineates this info about ceiling effect regarding 7OHM or Mitragynine. If there really is info that states ~14gpd (taking into consideration both digestion, absorption, and half-life) then I will of course improve my burns by going from 5g servings to 3.5g servings. Perhaps anecdotal, I have done this with the results in turn just feeling inadequate. Maybe it needs to be kept up for days at a time to allow remaining alkaloids to flush out. I do not think i am 'going backwards' lol



To OP, i think your plan is sustainable as long as your current attitude is. It is not something I would be able to maintain, but thats both a shortcoming and a personal choice. Whatever makes you and your corporeal vessel feel good, keep goin! Did you take DLPA previously while taking kratom daily? I am looking into adding that to the regimen .

[BallzDeep9]

There is a continuous discourse about ceiling effect regarding various kratom alkaloids, but I have yet to see any research pointing to where the ceiling is.

yeah lack of research.. too many variables .. Personal tolerance levels? Common sense to suggest, those doing, 50, 60+ gpd and complaining about side effects over on r/quitting sub, have gone way over the ceiling .. Obviously there is a general mis-understanding out there... that kratom, just like "drugs" doing more & more for greater effects.

Another variable would be, Quality of kratom? Does less Mitragynine % mean, other alkaloids would also be less? Is there ANY "overdose" on kratom? Or just like, hangover next day.. cumulative, withdrawal feeling, tired all the time.. needing a dose of kratom just to feel normal? All good mood & euphoria is gone.. and you're either very tired / or feel normal for like 1 hour after a dose. That was my experience @ 20 gpd and I scaled back to 15.. then 10.. then 5.. and now I'm around 3 gpd, 2+ servings. Getting "mood" boost as good as 10, but much less tired. But I also changed my diet...

But I don't use kratom for opiate detox. Or for chronic pain. Those people may WANT heavy sedative effects? So there's another variable!

[DontSlipBananaClip]

So Kratom changes like the wind. One moment your morning doses are the best, and the next moment they’re your worst. I’ve had the best burns of of a leaf and hours later redone and feel nothing. I’ve eaten food on kratom that intensifies it’s effects, and other times that it took away all of the effects. In the same unpredictable-ness, the less-is-more concept is very true. But I never learned how to properly use it. I just know with kratom’s antagonist/agonist ceiling effect, the more extreme dosers will not get those great euphoric effects that people who have a tolerance to less will feel. But I do vividly remember when my GPD was at around 40+grams. My dose was 6 grams. I remember one day I just out of the blue decide to take 2 grams instead. I didn’t know about rotating batches of kratom at the time so it was the same variety I had been taking for months. From one moment to the next, the 2g dose flooooooooooored me. I got a burn that was reminiscent of my first time every trying kratom. The euphoria was insane and I could not comprehend why I felt so good. I’ve read a lot of people’s stories of the less is more concept not working for them or being pointless...and the people that say that, I just believe to be people who are careful with how much kratom they take a day. In turn, they might have never experienced the effects of a true less-is-more deal since they’ve never taken that high of a dose while also jumping down to such a low dose. It definitely works..in the right circumstances. I’d say that you go big and try a 2g dose considering you take as much as I used to when the less-is-more worked for me. Who knows, you might be surprised

[mitragy9]

So Kratom changes like the wind. One moment your morning doses are the best, and the next moment they’re your worst. I’ve had the best burns of of a leaf and hours later redone and feel nothing. I’ve eaten food on kratom that intensifies it’s effects, and other times that it took away all of the effects. In the same unpredictable-ness, the less-is-more concept is very true. But I never learned how to properly use it. I just know with kratom’s antagonist/agonist ceiling effect, the more extreme dosers will not get those great euphoric effects that people who have a tolerance to less will feel. But I do vividly remember when my GPD was at around 40+grams. My dose was 6 grams. I remember one day I just out of the blue decide to take 2 grams instead. I didn’t know about rotating batches of kratom at the time so it was the same variety I had been taking for months. From one moment to the next, the 2g dose flooooooooooored me. I got a burn that was reminiscent of my first time every trying kratom. The euphoria was insane and I could not comprehend why I felt so good. I’ve read a lot of people’s stories of the less is more concept not working for them or being pointless...and the people that say that, I just believe to be people who are careful with how much kratom they take a day. In turn, they might have never experienced the effects of a true less-is-more deal since they’ve never taken that high of a dose while also jumping down to such a low dose. It definitely works..in the right circumstances. I’d say that you go big and try a 2g dose considering you take as much as I used to when the less-is-more worked for me. Who knows, you might be surprised

Kratom is very dependent on your livers metabolic function mitragynine needs to convert to 7-hydroxymitragynine to get really good opioid like effects. We know liver function varies a ton throughout the day. Hormones, diet, exercise(or lack of), other medications/drugs all of these factor in to this. Another aspect is kratoms bio availability and digestion this will vary a ton and constantly consuming large amounts of hydrophobic powder will hurt this in the long run in my experience. A simple switch to extracted tea for a few days will actually help kratom powder work better in my experience. It's always a good idea to give your bowels a bit of a break.

[LeafersonJr32]

So Kratom changes like the wind. One moment your morning doses are the best, and the next moment they’re your worst. I’ve had the best burns of of a leaf and hours later redone and feel nothing. I’ve eaten food on kratom that intensifies it’s effects, and other times that it took away all of the effects. In the same unpredictable-ness, the less-is-more concept is very true. But I never learned how to properly use it. I just know with kratom’s antagonist/agonist ceiling effect, the more extreme dosers will not get those great euphoric effects that people who have a tolerance to less will feel. But I do vividly remember when my GPD was at around 40+grams. My dose was 6 grams. I remember one day I just out of the blue decide to take 2 grams instead. I didn’t know about rotating batches of kratom at the time so it was the same variety I had been taking for months. From one moment to the next, the 2g dose flooooooooooored me. I got a burn that was reminiscent of my first time every trying kratom. The euphoria was insane and I could not comprehend why I felt so good. I’ve read a lot of people’s stories of the less is more concept not working for them or being pointless...and the people that say that, I just believe to be people who are careful with how much kratom they take a day. In turn, they might have never experienced the effects of a true less-is-more deal since they’ve never taken that high of a dose while also jumping down to such a low dose. It definitely works..in the right circumstances. I’d say that you go big and try a 2g dose considering you take as much as I used to when the less-is-more worked for me. Who knows, you might be surprised

Kratom is very dependent on your livers metabolic function mitragynine needs to convert to 7-hydroxymitragynine to get really good opioid like effects. We know liver function varies a ton throughout the day. Hormones, diet, exercise(or lack of), other medications/drugs all of these factor in to this. Another aspect is kratoms bio availability and digestion this will vary a ton and constantly consuming large amounts of hydrophobic powder will hurt this in the long run in my experience. A simple switch to extracted tea for a few days will actually help kratom powder work better in my experience. It's always a good idea to give your bowels a bit of a break.

Your serotonin and dopamine levels are also at play just like with anything else that causes dopamine spikes your brains levels go down signifigantly after a great bit of euphoria so subsequent burns maybe will not be as good until your levels have time to bounce back.