ADVICE WANTED: DMSO kratom emulsion for topical application: Any science help here?

[brassy]

UPDATES:

Kratom/DMSO topical application (you'll have to read the original post for the updates to make sense):

Topical application with DMSO works, but it is very messy, gives you garlic breath and is about the same efficacy as toss and wash. I actually rubbed it directly on my skin, powder and all, since I was staying indoors. I would say that if, like me, you are getting different effects from Kratom tea than you do from toss & wash (I only get the painkilling effect from tea without any energizing effect and only slight mood enhancing effect), then yes, it is better than tea, but it was SOOO messy I will not be doing it again. Plus, even though I added about 30% raw aloe vera to the steeped DMSO/Kratom solution, it was still irritating and stingy to the skin of my arms, chest & neck where I applied it.
In future, I will try adding a tiny amount of 99.99 per cent (less than 1%) to my kratom tea to see if it improves alkaloid extraction, enabling me to get the same effects from tea as from powder ingestion. Unfortunately, the DMSO I have on hand, though 99.99 per cent pure and NSF grade, isn't something I want to take internally, even in tiny amounts, because it was stored in plastic for a few years (maybe over 5 years). I will have to see if I can get a equally safe, equally pure DMSO fresh before I can try it.

Kratom Tea brewed in Coconut Milk

It somewhat improves the energizing effect of my kratom tea but the taste was very very bad. However, I used full fat, canned Goya coconut milk which I didn't think would mix very well with lemon juice or citric acid, which I find improves the taste of kratom a lot (not that it's good, but it's better, and with the addition of fresh mint, it is more bearable).
I will definitely do more trials with coconut and other nut milks, but next time around I won't use canned, which separates, and is extremely hard to filter. (cow's milk would work but it sounds kind of disgusting). Apparently there are some constituents in kratom that are fat soluble so brewing tea with a water/fat emulsion is a slight improvement.


Hi everyone. I am macerating 6 grams of Kratom in two tablespoons of 99.99% USP grade DMSO, which I'm going to try applying topically later to see if it might be an alternative to ingestion.
Any chemists in the house?
Note I am not doing this to make Kratom more potent. I'm still a light user (two to six grams a day max) and haven't developed tolerance or dependence. I'm doing it because my guts are KILLING me. I mean, doubled over constipation pain, despite taking at least ten grams of mag citrate, 25 mg. sennoside caps and two doses of Miralax every single day.
Granted, I have had multiple gut surgeries for a genetic disorder so I am the canary in the coalmine, but even during a two week inpatient stay following surgical complications when I was on bona fide, IV and oral opioids, I didn't have anywhere near this degree of constipation. Even thoroughly filtered tea causes gut distress.
Kratom has helped me enormously in the time since I started using it so I am desperate to find other means of taking it.
DMSO is commonly used by research chemists to extract constituents from organic materials including herbs so it's another thing to try. (I have a science-y job history plus I am a nerd so I have used it safely in the past for other purposes). fyi, DMSO is a solvent and transdermal carrier that crosses the blood brain barrier, so there are many handling precautions.
But I am not a chemist, so I have questions:
* are all Kratom alkaloids DMSO soluble ... are some so fragile DMSO might destroy them?
* is there an optimal PH value?
* would citric acid, glycerin, ethanol, coconut oil (for fat soluble constituents) be useful?
* how long to soak? (I don't think it needs very long at all).
* room temperature? (I'm going with room temperature).
Honestly, when I first got into Kratom a little over a year ago, I was shocked that I didn't see more about Kratom's constituents posted somewhere online in an easily understandable chart.
This is a huge community -- shouldn't we know by now which constituents are water-, fat- and or ethanol-soluble? Or is it possible the Kratom community does know all this stuff, and I've just done a piss-poor job researching it? (if the latter is true, please PM me so I can edit this post and save myself some shame)
Ideally, I'd be posting at ResearchGate, which is full of chemists that could provide instant answers.
Unfortunately, I no longer have academic or professional affiliations that would enable me to qualify automatically online for a free account.
I have seen recipes online for ethanol (alcohol you can drink like Everclear) extractions and yeah, I'll probably do that at some point soon. But ethanol extractions take a really long time (I make my own vanilla, etc.) and really, it would just be so great if one of our members was a chemist, because there are best ways to do that, too!
My gut tells me getting the best out of Kratom is much more complicated than the random solutions I find on the internet.
Take tea, for example. I have tried to be consistent and use the best methods, but I have never made a tea which fully replicates the qualities of the powdered Kratom at the same dosage.
My best tea attempts still relieve pain to the same degree but there is zero energy boost (which I really need) and the antidepressant qualities are milder than taking powder. It is not simply a matter of tea being weaker, either, because if I double my normal Kratom dosage, there is no energy gain at all. To the contrary: I get sleepy and/or the spins/wobbles.
I have considered the ready-made extracts but apart from prohibitive cost, once you concentrate even the most natural substances, you are also concentrating whatever toxins they contain, and you can't exactly ask vendors for their MSDS docs.
Perhaps Double M might consider adding a thread devoted to kratom experiments/recipes? I'd love for us to put our heads together. I'm in the minority now, in my inability to tolerate toss & wash, but I have to figure I'm not the only old person in here, and the longer you toss & wash, the older you get and the harder it's going to be on your guts.
Anyhow, I'll post back later and let folks know about the DMSO, but even if it works perfectly as a topically applied medium for Kratom, it's still not ideal. DMSO often gives you garlic mouth after you apply it topically so it's not socially ideal.
Other options I've thought about:
It could be that instead of making tea with hot water and lemon, steeping it with coconut or cow's milk would be superior. A lot of Ayurvedic formulas are brewed that way because the water-fat emulsion is best for leaching both fat- and water-soluble alkaloids.

PS:
Again, If I have made a gargantuan mistake here and there is some kind of well-known vault of comprehensive Kratom science somewhere, please forgive my ignorance and PM me so I can edit my post accordingly. Thanks!

[Babel-17]

I've used DMSO, but usually straight up on joints. I wouldn't mess around with it. You'll get death breath/a strong taste like garlic in your mouth as well.

If you insist on using it at least thoroughly clean the area of skin you'll be applying it on. Everything present that can drawn into the solvent will be transported across the skin. Decades ago I think I also used some aspirin that I dissolved in the DMSO first. More recently I've used a bit of castor oil with DMSO on a fibrous lump. DMSO can really dry out your skin, so I don't see it as having long term usability.

For constipation you can try Xylitol. It's a sugar alcohol, and I use it as a sweetener in my coffee once in a while for its laxative effect. What I use looks like granulated sugar. One rounded teaspoon can be enough, though I add in some Stevia to make the coffee sweet enough to suit me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol#Metabolism

I have no problem digesting Kratom. But I take in a real lot of liquid every day. I'm over 60, fwiw. There are digestive enzymes that can help in breaking down plant matter, and I'm sure they can be obtained in supplements.

P.S. We would use a Q-tip to apply the DMSO. Only tiny amounts were needed on the joints that were strained from physical exertion.

[e_poison]

I'm not a chemist, but my first thought was that kratom wouldn't work topically. So I started looking into this out of curiosity and did some Google-Fu. Apparently, some people do make pain salves from kratom and swear by it. One thing I noticed though is you're supposed to use extract, not powder.

I found one recipe here: https://bit.ly/3dcG6y5

I still don't know if it would work though. I'm not fully convinced just because I found a few people on the internet saying it works. I honestly don't think it's strong enough to penetrate the skin like some topicals... but hey - it's worth a shot. Keep us updated.

[IndelibleDotInk]

Gotta keep xylitol away from pets, esp. dogs.

[onespeedstop]

I still don't know if it would work though. I'm not fully convinced just because I found a few people on the internet saying it works. I honestly don't think it's strong enough to penetrate the skin like some topicals... but hey - it's worth a shot. Keep us updated.

^ Definitely, I would like to know about this as well. Gotta say though, if it worked, it seems like I would have seen it for sale by now, rule #1 of capitalism ha-ha.