Less is more. Do you feel the same?

[otiesbotanicals]

Hey everybody. Like many others I struggle with tolerance issues hardcore. Maybe it's from all those years of putting a beating on my receptors. I don't know. Eventually I get to a point where I take a break, start low, but then it feels like my tolerance goes back up super quickly. I hear alot about less is more. I understand it, the logic of it. The whole agonist vs antagonist thing. But I haven't had much luck w it. So have any of you actually gotten good results from the less is more thing? I would love to hear about your experiences with it.

[Redlion40]

I definitely feel like less is more. Those antagonists are a real thing. You can also lower your tolerance with raw honey and it also increases bioavailability. Stay hydrated in between servings to flush those antagonists out of your system. This will make your next serving much better. Keep in mind the Kratom is a cyp inhibitor just like grapefruit juice so basically it's potentiating itself.

[Babel-17]

Hey Adam! Yadda yadda yadda, from my perspective there's a lot to be said for less is more. But we're all unique, and what we want from Kratom will vary person to person, and possibly even day to day, and from morning to night, and from nighttime to midday.

If I'm taking Kratom to help with mood, which for me can be a combination of getting a boost of alertness, a reduction of anxiety, and soothing my body's inflammation, then I can get best results when I dial in just the right amount of Kratom. Too much can make for getting too wired, or too laid back. And I find that by taking less I can justify to myself taking it several times a day.

Those of us dealing with severe chronic pain are going to need their own playbook, and that will be something that got written from experience, and which has the flexibility to deal with flare-ups. Such people might be the best guides to dealing with the tolerance, because they can't afford at all to lose the benefits of Kratom, so they're the most likely of all to be following pragmatic rules, or at least pragmatic guidelines.

Right, now for my broken record spiel. While taking a couple of grams of a good ginger extract every day, or even more if taking regular powdered ginger as part of your diet, won't help a lot with becoming tolerant to the stimulating effects of Kratom, it can help with avoiding a major tolerance to the pain relieving effect of Kratom. I take it every day, and I think it helps.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22472107/

Ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) prevents the development of morphine analgesic tolerance and physical dependence in rats

On the one hand, even if the research applied to people, we'd need to be shoveling in the ginger; but on the other, other, hand it seems that people don't need the same level of ginger extract per kilogram of body mass that lab rats do. As ginger has other health benefits, I see the taking of it as worth a shot. I'm pretty hardcore about swilling down supplements in their powdered form, it saves a lot of cash doing it that way, but I've heard good things from people who eat high quality ginger chews. Huh, you used to sell them, a year or two ago, IIRC. Maybe it will be worth it to do so again? Just have to account for the extra sugar that comes as part of those chews.

I take Agmatine five times a week, and I also often take some palmitoylethanolamide. Lol, just mentioning that reminded me that I could benefit from some, so I just now got up and take it.

For the "slower" benefits of Kratom there are other things that can be taken so as to partially replace Kratom, or to work in conjunction with it. CBD, extracts of Skullcap, Valerian root, Passion Flower, Lemon Balm, and so on.

For the "faster" benefits there is Rhodiola Rosa, SAMe (caution with that, higher amounts could trigger some mania), and all of the nootropics that have gotten popular since the film Limitless came out. But that's a topic that's best read up on before risking any possible side effects.

Having a healthy diet, devoid of any nutritional deficiencies, should always be step number one.

P.S. Rather than try to explain why, I'll just state that I have a hunch that taking Lecithin, whether by just eating some eggs, or by taking some lecithin powder or caps, might offer appreciable benefits to Kratom users.

[mivanqua]

Rather than try to explain why, I'll just state that I have a hunch that taking Lecithin, whether by just eating some eggs, or by taking some lecithin powder or caps, might offer appreciable benefits to Kratom users.

Nope! Let's hear your theory!

[StringThing]

I would like to hear why.

mitragynine and co are water soluble. Lecithin is usually used to improve bioavailability with fat soluble drugs, like cannabinoids, various essential vitamins, carotenoids, etc. It shouldn't make a difference with kratom. So I'm not sure what benefits you could be talking about.

[Babel-17]

Rather than try to explain why, I'll just state that I have a hunch that taking Lecithin, whether by just eating some eggs, or by taking some lecithin powder or caps, might offer appreciable benefits to Kratom users.

Nope! Let's hear your theory!

Mitragynine is a stimulant, and I've noticed that its effects can be very similar to that of stimulating nootropics, such as those of the racetam family. Long story short, they utilize acetylcholine in the brain to help our synapses fire. It's pretty much a given among a lot of fans of nootropics that for best effects they need to take some form of choline, and if they are deficient in it, they can get a headache. That band tightening effect you might feel on your head from a fast white? That's what nootropic users sometimes get as well.

Too much choline is no good, as in and of itself it can be stimulating. Lecithin also has Inositol, which is an important nutrient that many people take so as to stay calm. So you might say that Lecithin has a nice balance. And the powdered, or liquid, form can be really inexpensive.

Serious fans of the effects of choline take specific forms of it, some more exotic than others, and with price tags to match. I know of that, but not a lot about it. Pretty interesting to read nootropic fans go on about them though.

TL;DR: Mitragynine is a stimulant that can use up your reserve of choline. If yours is used up, then eat an egg (has lots of lecithin) and your burn might be better. Keeping a container of Lecithin powder handy might be the way to go, as Lecithin has choline, and it's cheap.

[Babel-17]

I would like to hear why.

mitragynine and co are water soluble. Lecithin is usually used to improve bioavailability with fat soluble drugs, like cannabinoids, various essential vitamins, carotenoids, etc. It shouldn't make a difference with kratom. So I'm not sure what benefits you could be talking about.

I made a post below regarding what I think is the benefit.

[BallzDeep9]

TL;DR: Mitragynine is a stimulant that can use up your reserve of choline. If yours is used up, then eat an egg (has lots of lecithin) and your burn might be better. Keeping a container of Lecithin powder handy might be the way to go, as Lecithin has choline, and it's cheap.

Hmmm. Good points, a number of things are anti-cholinergic, for example antihistamine medications: diphenhydramine (Benadryl), IS a strong anticholinergic antihistamine... Many years ago I got in a BAD habit of taking this stuff at night. These also can blow up the male Prostate!!

Now I definitely avoid these!! have found other things work better as Sleep Aids, and for relief of congestion I take N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) a antioxidant which also reduces phlegm and excess mucus... A few months ago, I began taking Alpha GPC a Choline supplement, and a brain booster... Took awhile to build-up but I have noticed improvements in brain function, short term memory, and relieving the "Brain Fog" sometimes associate with too much Kratom!

[BallzDeep9]

So have any of you actually gotten good results from the less is more thing? I would love to hear about your experiences with it.

hey there Adam, thanks for posting... Yes a couple years ago I dropped way down from around 20 gpd, to around... 5 gpd

It's been fantastic! Another long-term vendor, do you know Jake @ Kraydo Organics? in New York state. Anyway he posted in another thread last week here... his experience about the same as mine. "Less is More".

Kratom is kratom. That's one thing, I can accept kratom for what it does... Some days I do get a pretty good buzz, from my 2- 3 gram servings. Of course many people are looking for something else ?? I do combo cannabis, THC and or CBD edibles, with my kratom and often that's really good - but timing is important for gummies to kick-in. Then about 1x per week maybe twice a month, I'll do a Extract shot! Which definitely produces stronger effects BUT... I notice a mild "hangover" next day... AND for sure doing Extract every day would be a mistake.

Otie's Botanicals is a really nice website - Lots of variety - we're cutting the Saidit Vendor List down to a Top 20 including Otie's

[Fallguy]

Less is definitely more for me. 2-3 grams up to twice per day is my sweet spot. I do skip days, and when the effects seem muted I cut the dose in half. Then as my dose climbs back towards 3gs instead of continuing higher I do less. Through experimenting 6 grams is the max dose I've ever tried. Also combining cannabis seems to mute effects of both.

[Badgame85]

Hey everybody. Like many others I struggle with tolerance issues hardcore. Maybe it's from all those years of putting a beating on my receptors. I don't know. Eventually I get to a point where I take a break, start low, but then it feels like my tolerance goes back up super quickly. I hear alot about less is more. I understand it, the logic of it. The whole agonist vs antagonist thing. But I haven't had much luck w it. So have any of you actually gotten good results from the less is more thing? I would love to hear about your experiences with it.

Hey buddy,

Weren't you dabbling around with micro dosing a few weeks ago? Interested to hear how that went.

[e_poison]

I feel like there is a certain cutoff, and that cutoff is vastly different for everyone. For me, I've experimented with the really small doses like 1g and I honestly don't get much from them. I find I need at least 4-5g to feel something (3g if it's a really strong strain).

That being said, I've cut back big time over the past couple of years after learning about the "less is more" mantra.

I used to do like 10g, 3x a day. Now I'm good with 5-8g once or twice a day, depending on strain potency. Some days even less.

[otiesbotanicals]

I definitely feel like less is more. Those antagonists are a real thing. You can also lower your tolerance with raw honey and it also increases bioavailability. Stay hydrated in between servings to flush those antagonists out of your system. This will make your next serving much better. Keep in mind the Kratom is a cyp inhibitor just like grapefruit juice so basically it's potentiating itself.

So do you think I should lower my tolerance gradually. Or should I jump right into lower doses? I'm SO BAD at hydrating. If I don't stay completely on top of it all all times I won't do it

[otiesbotanicals]

So much good info on here. I just learned a lot! Whatup Ballz! Hope all is well! You're too kind. It's an honor being on your list! I'm reminded every day how hard it is to keep an e-commerce store looking nice. Hey Babel! Good seeing you here! Hey everyone else and thanks for commenting everyone. I NEVER knew this about the Benadryl thing. I take Benadryl every night. I used to take Trazodone because I'm terrible at sleeping. When my doctor wanted me to go a therapist/psychiatrist for them I stopped getting them lmao. I love my life. I'm just bad at sleeping. It's not that deep. Haha. I ended up ordering knockoffs off a Canadian website. To my surprise they came from India. They worked, but way too sketchy for me. So I've been taking Benadryl every single night for about a year now. Honestly, it doesn't even work for me anymore so it's probably just a mental thing now. Melatonin actually keeps me awake. I tried agmatine a few times. I don't know what it was but every time I used it I got real irritable. For no reason poor Becca. I'm gonna give it another shot though. I have to figure something out. I would love to get that warm, fuzzy feeling back again. I love hearing how people lowered their doses. Right now I take about 6.5 4x a day. I'm conflicted about it. Some days I tell myself that's too much and I need to lower my intake. Other days I tell myself it's really not that bad compare to others. Then again, we are all different. Have any of you ever gotten to the point where you either got no effects....or the wobbles? One or the other? I'm not there right now. But I've been there before

[otiesbotanicals]

I would LOVE to be able to take a teaspoon and feel satisfied

[Babel-17]

If taking Agmatine, try weighing it out to 750 mg. or less, and don't take it more than five days a week, or even less. I'll guess that one way to deal with any feelings of irritability is to only take it before exercising in one way or another.

Agmatine comes from Arginine, and both are used prior to working out by a lot of people, though not at the same time, as they can increase blood flow.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... ow_it_can/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agmatine

[Babel-17]

When I was young there was a new grocery item called Hamburger Helper that became popular.

While not all that analogous, as we're talking alkaloids, you can try substituting in 25% stem and vein for your regular Kratom. Imo that would slightly blunt the effects of the burn, but it could prolong it, in that there might not be as sharp a drop-off of effects as the serving of Kratom undergoes its normal breakdown in the body.

Lol, as it so happens, your stem and vein is good, I still have some, but there other good sources if you want to experiment.

There's Hirsuta and Javanica, but I vote for keeping it simple when first whipping ones tolerance into better shape.

P.S. Time heals all wounds, and a few uncomfortable hours here and there should pay off with a better tolerance, even if its not too remarkable the first time you cut back. But it can get easier from there, especially if you accept as a victory achieving the goal of having a day where you took less Kratom.

Easier said than done, I know, I remember the horror, the horror, of when I cut way back on my caffeine intake. That got pretty surreal at times. But when it was done, it was done, and I could once again drink coffee like a regular enthusiast, and not a coffee hound who drank coffee by the pot, out of a custom size cup.

[kraydokratom]

Yes! Add the Kraydo Team to the "less is more" group! Tally it up! I got up to 6g, 4-7 times a day at one point. I'd start to feel crappy and "want more" only after 1-2 hours of taking the kratom! It was miserable, and I barely felt anything! One day I decided I had nothing to lose, and tried 4g. It felt like the first time I had ever taken kratom! Over the next few months I weaned down to what I call my "magic number": 1.7g. It's highly effective and perfect for me personally. I would always scoff at anyone who told me less is more -- even several customers have emailed me to tell me similar stories, and I didn't believe them!

I will say, less is more to an extent. Obviously 0.2g probably won't do a thing. But I do think 1.2-2.5g is a sweet spot that most may never realize. Anecdotally I can say that once you go past 5-6g, kratom starts to become largely ineffective.

Thanks Ballz for the shoutout. Good luck on your journey, everyone!

[RumRunner]

Less is more seems to work for most. IMO as important as that....be flexible. When my doses stop producing results, I drop to two per day by eliminating the evening dose and replacing with CBD or valerian root. The solution obviously is to avoid climbing the dose ladder and make some sacrifices with dose spacing. Quality burns eventually return at much lower amounts even without a T break.

[Badgame85]

I feel like there is a certain cutoff, and that cutoff is vastly different for everyone. For me, I've experimented with the really small doses like 1g and I honestly don't get much from them. I find I need at least 4-5g to feel something (3g if it's a really strong strain).

That being said, I've cut back big time over the past couple of years after learning about the "less is more" mantra.

I used to do like 10g, 3x a day. Now I'm good with 5-8g once or twice a day, depending on strain potency. Some days even less.

This is me exactly. When I started Kratom, I measured my dosing by measuring spoons lol before the weight scale life. I would take anywhere from 7.5-10 grams per dose and anything over would make me sleepy. Then tolerance said hello and I was up to around 15 grams 2-3 times a day. After the last 6 months I've dropped to 5-7 grams max per dose, and anything over that I feel uncomfortable. It's so crazy how this has changed considering how I started.

I don't claim to understand the "less us more" mantra but there is something to it...

[WhiteAngelica]

Yes. The more I take in a dose, the less effective I find it. Some say that if you take larger doses, it slows down certain reds. I haven't found that to be the case and I am primarily a red-head.

If I take my exact same dose that I take for anything else, the dose I have stuck to for several years, I'm in good shape. My tolerance isn't messed up because I switch around the strains and brands of kratom I use in a given day, week, etc.

I have a high tolerance and chronic pain but I have never, ever found benefits to jacking up my usual dosage. I actually feel crappier and yes--little goes a longer way, I'd say.

Also, the Wobbles suck.

[kraydokratom]

I have a high tolerance and chronic pain but I have never, ever found benefits to jacking up my usual dosage. I actually feel crappier and yes--little goes a longer way, I'd say.

Also, the Wobbles suck.

Yes they do! Many people say that if you don't switch around strains you can develop a tolerance to one strain after 1-2 days. I found that to be true when using the higher doses, but my 1.7g of OG Elephant hits the same every time, and I have not had to increase since I decreased down to where I'm at. It works every time!

[ba2000]

I dropped from 10g 4-5x/day when I was quitting an loooong term addiction situation to 5g 3x/day because I was burning through too much awesome 2018 or 19 (?) leaf too fast. It was a rough day or two but it turned around and felt just as strong & cleaner. I got the guts to drop to 2.5g a year later and it felt sooooo much better. Tingles off the charts- energy to spare- mood to spare. I dropped to 1.46g last year and it's about the same as 2.5, but less forgiving if you get weaker leaf- I get a zilch dose once in great awhile with new leaf.

[KCobbBMore]

I seem to need around 5g. I am always switching it around and trying to do less, but it rarely works. Aa long as I have a decent sized dose to start the day, I can go with a little less the rest of the day.

[coveman]

Do you guys feel the recent #lessismore movement is due to better quality kratom, better delivery strategies (ie. The Ballz smoothie, Aero press, etc.), more science/ knowledge or a little of everything? Just curious what everyone thinks, especially the folks with years under their K-belt. I've read the many posts about 2018-19 being the kratom golden years, which was before my introduction, so I guess maybe I was secretly hoping it was because the quality was getting better and I didn't miss out on the preverbal kratom gold rush.....

[Rhino236]

Do you guys feel the recent #lessismore movement is due to better quality kratom, better delivery strategies (ie. The Ballz smoothie, Aero press, etc.), more science/ knowledge or a little of everything? Just curious what everyone thinks, especially the folks with years under their K-belt. I've read the many posts about 2018-19 being the kratom golden years, which was before my introduction, so I guess maybe I was secretly hoping it was because the quality was getting better and I didn't miss out on the preverbal kratom gold rush.....

Late 2015-2016 was the golden years of leaf 2018-2019 was a pretty meh year for it. I feel like personally with the rise of small batch 2020 and this year has brought some quality powder. Right now is definitely a great time to get some fire from lots of vendors and suppliers. We’re getting farmers to harvest older leaf now(at a premium cost) and indoor dry everything. So quality should keep getting better and better.

[BallzDeep9]

I've read the many posts about 2018-19 being the kratom golden years, which was before my introduction, so I guess maybe I was secretly hoping it was because the quality was getting better and I didn't miss out on the preverbal kratom gold rush...

Back in 2018 people were saying <> 2016 was the "golden years" lol -- it's documented history that a huge PANIC happened in Nov 2017, due to false rumors on the Internet - panic buying caused all vendors to Sell Out in Dec --> leading to all USA vendors demanding a shipment from Indo --> which in turn, caused many sketchy Indo's to ship piles of dirty low quality product... For 6 months in 2018 the quality was crap!!

In the middle of this CRAP period March 2018, Reddit shut down all vendors and MM opened... Some people were singing the praises of a shitty vendor "Mystic Island" noted for silly blend names, had like 50 different products all the same low quality crap... Finally dozens of people reported zero effect, even sickness, from eating this monkey poo... The vendor tried to bullshit & avoid charge-backs... Search on MM for details. Also - there have been cases of vendors selling powder spiked with drugs. AKA claims this is common, I disagree with AKA... it's rare but some product has been adulterated.

Basically people got smarter, wiser, on ALL aspects of Kratom - the fake "strain" names, BS marketing, selling dirty floor sweepings under a silly name like Purple Unicorn... because buyers fall for anything new or different... or cute funny animals on a website - Happy Hippo style. Most everything's a SCAM in kratom, including the One Size Fits All BS - in regard to Recommended Serving Size.

I think it's NOW finally recognized, that normal average people get good effects around 2 grams. For some it's 1 gram, others need 3... but that's the range. For those who are opiate drug addicts, it's different - But most people don't have that problem and shouldn't be taking HUGE doses of kratom... Like alcoholics can handle a full bottle of wine/ but normal people, drink a glass of wine, otherwise would get sick drinking a full bottle!!

[herbalhippie]

I started out at .75 gram 3-4x day and stayed there for almost 3 years, then bumped up to 1.5 gram 3-4x/day and that's where I am still. Once in a great while, if I need to,
I will go up to a 2 gram dose but it really doesn't seem to make much difference and I'm not willing to go higher than that because I am terrified of opioid addiction and withdrawal.

It's a healthy fear. For me anyway. If I'm going to be addicted or dependent it's going to be on small amounts. Been there, done that, never going there again.

Low doses still work fine for me, possibly because I've never gone up to large doses.

[coveman]

Appreciate the feedback and comments. Its very interesting to learn about the 'hands-on' history of Kratom.....especially enjoyed the 'Behind the Scenes' short stories. Looking forward to more of those stories from our favorite vendors as sometimes I forget the risks and headaches they endure to provide us quality product, and it reminds me to express my gratitude (and the reasonable prices - especially since I saw last week a large vendor charging $320 for a key of GMD.....wtf). So thank you small batch vendors, you are appreciated more than you know. Thx. -C

[StringThing]

Rather than try to explain why, I'll just state that I have a hunch that taking Lecithin, whether by just eating some eggs, or by taking some lecithin powder or caps, might offer appreciable benefits to Kratom users.

Nope! Let's hear your theory!

Mitragynine is a stimulant, and I've noticed that its effects can be very similar to that of stimulating nootropics, such as those of the racetam family. Long story short, they utilize acetylcholine in the brain to help our synapses fire. It's pretty much a given among a lot of fans of nootropics that for best effects they need to take some form of choline, and if they are deficient in it, they can get a headache. That band tightening effect you might feel on your head from a fast white? That's what nootropic users sometimes get as well.

Too much choline is no good, as in and of itself it can be stimulating. Lecithin also has Inositol, which is an important nutrient that many people take so as to stay calm. So you might say that Lecithin has a nice balance. And the powdered, or liquid, form can be really inexpensive.

Serious fans of the effects of choline take specific forms of it, some more exotic than others, and with price tags to match. I know of that, but not a lot about it. Pretty interesting to read nootropic fans go on about them though.

TL;DR: Mitragynine is a stimulant that can use up your reserve of choline. If yours is used up, then eat an egg (has lots of lecithin) and your burn might be better. Keeping a container of Lecithin powder handy might be the way to go, as Lecithin has choline, and it's cheap.

Sorry but this is a gross misunderstanding. Mitragynine is not 'a stimulant' and similarity in effects does not mean that it utilizes choline to metabolize. I am very familiar with nootropics and I'm not sure why you would make this kind of connection to choline and kratom without scientific evidence.

[StringThing]

I've read the many posts about 2018-19 being the kratom golden years, which was before my introduction, so I guess maybe I was secretly hoping it was because the quality was getting better and I didn't miss out on the preverbal kratom gold rush...

Back in 2018 people were saying <> 2016 was the "golden years" lol -- it's documented history that a huge PANIC happened in Nov 2017, due to false rumors on the Internet - panic buying caused all vendors to Sell Out in Dec --> leading to all USA vendors demanding a shipment from Indo --> which in turn, caused many sketchy Indo's to ship piles of dirty low quality product... For 6 months in 2018 the quality was crap!!

In the middle of this CRAP period March 2018, Reddit shut down all vendors and MM opened... Some people were singing the praises of a shitty vendor "Mystic Island" noted for silly blend names, had like 50 different products all the same low quality crap... Finally dozens of people reported zero effect, even sickness, from eating this monkey poo... The vendor tried to bullshit & avoid charge-backs... Search on MM for details. Also - there have been cases of vendors selling powder spiked with drugs. AKA claims this is common, I disagree with AKA... it's rare but some product has been adulterated.

Basically people got smarter, wiser, on ALL aspects of Kratom - the fake "strain" names, BS marketing, selling dirty floor sweepings under a silly name like Purple Unicorn... because buyers fall for anything new or different... or cute funny animals on a website - Happy Hippo style. Most everything's a SCAM in kratom, including the One Size Fits All BS - in regard to Recommended Serving Size.

I think it's NOW finally recognized, that normal average people get good effects around 2 grams. For some it's 1 gram, others need 3... but that's the range. For those who are opiate drug addicts, it's different - But most people don't have that problem and shouldn't be taking HUGE doses of kratom... Like alcoholics can handle a full bottle of wine/ but normal people, drink a glass of wine, otherwise would get sick drinking a full bottle!!

2012-2014/2015 was the golden years. That was before kratom got popular. 2016 was too late.

I 100% believe the kratom was better before then. There were a lot less vendors and they seemed to pay more attention to what they sold. After 2016-2018 it became very popular and legislation started getting written. There is still kratom that is good but its harder to find because more low quality stuff has flooded the market. Potency is not a concern for a lot of kratom buyers. Most vendors don't do any testing at all. It's kind of fucking insane when you compare it to something like the hemp industry.

I wish more vendors would test

[Babel-17]

Nope! Let's hear your theory!

Mitragynine is a stimulant, and I've noticed that its effects can be very similar to that of stimulating nootropics, such as those of the racetam family. Long story short, they utilize acetylcholine in the brain to help our synapses fire. It's pretty much a given among a lot of fans of nootropics that for best effects they need to take some form of choline, and if they are deficient in it, they can get a headache. That band tightening effect you might feel on your head from a fast white? That's what nootropic users sometimes get as well.

Too much choline is no good, as in and of itself it can be stimulating. Lecithin also has Inositol, which is an important nutrient that many people take so as to stay calm. So you might say that Lecithin has a nice balance. And the powdered, or liquid, form can be really inexpensive.

Serious fans of the effects of choline take specific forms of it, some more exotic than others, and with price tags to match. I know of that, but not a lot about it. Pretty interesting to read nootropic fans go on about them though.

TL;DR: Mitragynine is a stimulant that can use up your reserve of choline. If yours is used up, then eat an egg (has lots of lecithin) and your burn might be better. Keeping a container of Lecithin powder handy might be the way to go, as Lecithin has choline, and it's cheap.

Sorry but this is a gross misunderstanding. Mitragynine is not 'a stimulant' and similarity in effects does not mean that it utilizes choline to metabolize. I am very familiar with nootropics and I'm not sure why you would make this kind of connection to choline and kratom without scientific evidence.

Where did I say Mitragynine utilizes choline to metabolize? I was speaking to how the brain when stimulated can use up acetylcholine. Kratom/Mitragynine should metabolize whatever your acetylcholine levels are. The experience it provides is better however, imo and from my experience, when there's no deficiencies of choline in the diet, and thus in the brain.
Kratom can be stimulating, and of its two main alkaloids, my experience shows that it's the Mitragynine that accomplishes that, not the 7-OH.
https://kratomliteracyproject.com/why-y ... ry-kratom/

When you consume Kratom, it induces the release of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that plays a significant role in enhancing focus as well as alleviating pain, muscle contraction, and regulation of the endocrine system. According to research, acetylcholine enhances memory and focus by increasing the ability of the cortical circuits to respond to sensory stimuli. This is useful for students who are preparing for an exam or for people who are heavily dependent on their memory. It also releases serotonin and dopamine that benefits in increasing focus and attention span.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Kratom is not a stimulant.

The brain uses acetylcholine. When stimulated, the brain is using more of it. Maybe for some, or even most, users there's not a feeling of having the brain kick over faster. For me, and afaik plenty of others, there is.

[StringThing]

Mitragynine is a stimulant, and I've noticed that its effects can be very similar to that of stimulating nootropics, such as those of the racetam family. Long story short, they utilize acetylcholine in the brain to help our synapses fire. It's pretty much a given among a lot of fans of nootropics that for best effects they need to take some form of choline, and if they are deficient in it, they can get a headache. That band tightening effect you might feel on your head from a fast white? That's what nootropic users sometimes get as well.

Too much choline is no good, as in and of itself it can be stimulating. Lecithin also has Inositol, which is an important nutrient that many people take so as to stay calm. So you might say that Lecithin has a nice balance. And the powdered, or liquid, form can be really inexpensive.

Serious fans of the effects of choline take specific forms of it, some more exotic than others, and with price tags to match. I know of that, but not a lot about it. Pretty interesting to read nootropic fans go on about them though.

TL;DR: Mitragynine is a stimulant that can use up your reserve of choline. If yours is used up, then eat an egg (has lots of lecithin) and your burn might be better. Keeping a container of Lecithin powder handy might be the way to go, as Lecithin has choline, and it's cheap.

Sorry but this is a gross misunderstanding. Mitragynine is not 'a stimulant' and similarity in effects does not mean that it utilizes choline to metabolize. I am very familiar with nootropics and I'm not sure why you would make this kind of connection to choline and kratom without scientific evidence.

Where did I say Mitragynine utilizes choline to metabolize? I was speaking to how the brain when stimulated can use up acetylcholine. Kratom/Mitragynine should metabolize whatever your acetylcholine levels are. The experience it provides is better however, imo and from my experience, when there's no deficiencies of choline in the diet, and thus in the brain.
Kratom can be stimulating, and of its two main alkaloids, my experience shows that it's the Mitragynine that accomplishes that, not the 7-OH.
https://kratomliteracyproject.com/why-y ... ry-kratom/

When you consume Kratom, it induces the release of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that plays a significant role in enhancing focus as well as alleviating pain, muscle contraction, and regulation of the endocrine system. According to research, acetylcholine enhances memory and focus by increasing the ability of the cortical circuits to respond to sensory stimuli. This is useful for students who are preparing for an exam or for people who are heavily dependent on their memory. It also releases serotonin and dopamine that benefits in increasing focus and attention span.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Kratom is not a stimulant.

The brain uses acetylcholine. When stimulated, the brain is using more of it. Maybe for some, or even most, users there's not a feeling of having the brain kick over faster. For me, and afaik plenty of others, there is.

You really said a bunch of nothing here.

Not sure what more I need to say.

[jdelamore76]

I just wanted to say hah!