KRATOM BAN - How Would it Affect National Economies?

[Herba Rosa]

Economic Impact of a Kratom Ban

It's clear that kratom has become a large enough industry to influence economic conditions,
especially within their largest nation of origin, Indonesia. Borneo.


Yes, many American businesses would fail as well, which is a tragedy.
But I believe it would pale in comparison to the devastating impact on that part of the developing world.


VVVVVVV


While it is disputed by some people that kratom is the largest sector of the Indonesian economy,
we can all agree that it comes close. Especially for the middle class of that nation.

Kratom has brought millions out of poverty and families have built their livelihoods around it.
Taking this away from them will leave them desperate and struggling to survive.
It would likely cause a refugee crisis as people flee in search of better conditions.

---

I'd like to know your thoughts on this.

---> Do you think that a kratom ban would have economic side effects as described above?

---> What other possible economic effects do you foresee?

[BallzDeep9]

Thailand to set up first kratom extraction plant in Surat Thani

https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/as ... urat-thani

[LuckyHerbals]

Ballz..... IDK how I feel about this. It sounds like a terrible idea to me!!!

[onespeedstop]

"Since the herb was legalised, the price of kratom leaves has soared to between 300 and 400 baht per kilo and the price of seedlings has risen three-fold to 300 baht per plant."

^ Kind of odd in a way, since since marijuana was legalized in my state, it is now sold at approx. 1/3 to 1/2 the old street price. Additionally it is checked, properly weighed and packaged, and is as strong or stronger than anything that came before it. Is this just a temporary price increase as more people become involved in the industry, or does it mean a from-now-on price increase ?

[ba2000]

Kind of odd in a way, since since marijuana was legalized in my state, it is now sold at approx. 1/3 to 1/2 the old street price.

Lucky. Our state legalized and prices doubled. You don't have to hide it anymore, but it costs a boatload.

[onespeedstop]

Kind of odd in a way, since since marijuana was legalized in my state, it is now sold at approx. 1/3 to 1/2 the old street price.

Lucky. Our state legalized and prices doubled. You don't have to hide it anymore, but it costs a boatload.

From what I recall seeing some prices (I'm not actually a customer of that product, but I took a look and went with my sister when she was in town once) is that it started out about the same (as street price according to a couple of friends, and my memory of the 90's ha-ha) and over the course of 3-4 years it's plummeted. I can only only assume that is due to competition in the marketplace - I mean it literally grows on (very small) trees, so if you scale production up the price should come down. I'm guessing our state govt. hasn't gone too crazy on the taxes for it, which certainly factors in as well.

[herbalhippie]

so if you scale production up the price should come down.

I can literally see SEVEN grow operations across the river from my porch, one of them is greenhouses. I can see the lights from
another on top of the hill directly across from me when it's foggy up there. And there are many, many, MANY more in this area.

I don't remember what prices are these days since I don't indulge and haven't had to buy any for a couple
years for the pain rub I make. I know they're relatively low.

[onespeedstop]

I can literally see SEVEN grow operations across the river from my porch, one of them is greenhouses. I can see the lights from
another on top of the hill directly across from me when it's foggy up there. And there are many, many, MANY more in this area.

As long as you can't smell them, then no worries eh. We have a rendering plant 3-4 miles away, and in the spring/summer, depending on the wind, whew, not good ha-ha.

[herbalhippie]

I can literally see SEVEN grow operations across the river from my porch, one of them is greenhouses. I can see the lights from
another on top of the hill directly across from me when it's foggy up there. And there are many, many, MANY more in this area.

. We have a rendering plant 3-4 miles away, and in the spring/summer, depending on the wind, whew, not good ha-ha.

That sounds bad. Ever smelled a paper mill?

[onespeedstop]

That sounds bad. Ever smelled a paper mill?

Twice, going down into Lewiston, Idaho. The rendering plant is more of a sickly-sweet-organic smell, where as the paper mill one smelled vaguely more like chemicals and kind of harsher in a way, plus I'm guessing that one is year-round. Luckily we don't smell the rendering plant every year, some summers the wind just doesn't blow it this direction or whatever, and I've never smelled it between about Oct-April or so, so it's not even an issue 1/2 or so of the year during any year.

[Herba Rosa]

Thailand to set up first kratom extraction plant in Surat Thani

https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/as ... urat-thani

I'm not much of an extract fan, personally. But if I was, I'd rather have in made in America, either on a small scale or with high regulatory standards.

[Herba Rosa]

"Since the herb was legalised, the price of kratom leaves has soared to between 300 and 400 baht per kilo and the price of seedlings has risen three-fold to 300 baht per plant."

^ Kind of odd in a way, since since marijuana was legalized in my state, it is now sold at approx. 1/3 to 1/2 the old street price. Additionally it is checked, properly weighed and packaged, and is as strong or stronger than anything that came before it. Is this just a temporary price increase as more people become involved in the industry, or does it mean a from-now-on price increase ?

In California, back when we only had medicinal use, an 8th of bud cost double the street price or more.

But when legalization passed, it still stayed higher than street price, but slowly went down over time. Now street price and dispensary price are comparable.

[Herba Rosa]

Kind of odd in a way, since since marijuana was legalized in my state, it is now sold at approx. 1/3 to 1/2 the old street price.

Lucky. Our state legalized and prices doubled. You don't have to hide it anymore, but it costs a boatload.

From what I recall seeing some prices (I'm not actually a customer of that product, but I took a look and went with my sister when she was in town once) is that it started out about the same (as street price according to a couple of friends, and my memory of the 90's ha-ha) and over the course of 3-4 years it's plummeted. I can only only assume that is due to competition in the marketplace - I mean it literally grows on (very small) trees, so if you scale production up the price should come down. I'm guessing our state govt. hasn't gone too crazy on the taxes for it, which certainly factors in as well.

Yep! Competition driving down price. You got that right!

I used to work in the cannabis industry, and I watched it all go down in 2019/2020. Things changed fast.

[Herba Rosa]

I can literally see SEVEN grow operations across the river from my porch, one of them is greenhouses. I can see the lights from
another on top of the hill directly across from me when it's foggy up there. And there are many, many, MANY more in this area.

As long as you can't smell them, then no worries eh. We have a rendering plant 3-4 miles away, and in the spring/summer, depending on the wind, whew, not good ha-ha.

I love the smell of cannabis

And hey, at least it's not pollution. I'd much rather smell some ganja than get asthma from toxic fumes.

[onespeedstop]

I love the smell of cannabis

And hey, at least it's not pollution. I'd much rather smell some ganja than get asthma from toxic fumes.

I really don't like the weed smell, freshly grown/trimmed or smoked, but yes - it is still better than actual pollution ha-ha. And if capitalism can't manage to get their prices lower than the black market, well, that's just another war on drugs they'll lose then eh.

[acct55]

So I have been really interested in this for a couple months. I've been doing a lot of research, but aside from some contacts I've made with various Indonesian suppliers, an Indonesian friend working in agribiz, and the various things I've read online (including a letter from the governor of West Kalimantan)--I haven't really found much concrete information about this [the alleged 2022/2024 Indonesian ban].

Some people who seem to be relatively "in the know" have said that this time feels a little different than previous ban attempts/talks. But again, I've not gotten any concrete information--so if someone can give any input on this or point me in a direction to look that would be awesome.

Here's what I think I know: (TLDR at the end)

The Indonesian ban was originally reported in 2019 and set to go into effect in 2022 after the BNN designated kratom as a class 1 narcotic in 2017. 2022 was picked to allow for a 5-year transition period for farmers etc.

Then in 2020 the Pontianek Post reported that kratom had been legally reclassified in a way that allowed it to be cultivated but only for export as "legal medicinal raw materials" (I assume that means raw leaves).

However, later that month the BNN was reportedly still talking about the ban but with a later enforcement date of 2024.

Aside from the BNN, there has been a lot of resistance to ban attempts from other government agencies and officials in Indonesia. I've read that translated letter and have anecdotal information about miscellaneous other agencies and people but that's about it.

Again, some people have said the BNN seems more serious this time but I have no idea what that means. I don't speak Indonesian and have limited contacts there.

So I've been trying to get a feel for what different people in the kratom supply chain think about this... Since roughly 95% of the world's kratom comes from Indonesia, a ban there would be a major blow to the world's kratom supply.

Given how serious that would be, I figured someone would have a little more info on what is happening there. If it's allowed only for export, that's okay but still not great since I think some farmers may switch crops (maybe I don't know) or the processing might be affected if only raw leaves can be exported. But I have no idea because this is mostly from secondary sources and translated articles.

On the other hand, we have Thailand which recently decriminalized kratom. While they don't have the established farms (or not nearly as many as are in Indonesia), I have to wonder if any suppliers are looking into sourcing kratom from Thailand just in case of a ban in Indonesia. I liked that link Ballzdeep shared about the planned kratom extract production plant and am looking any info like that.

Also, in Thailand it appears that some kind of licensing is required but I am unclear on the details. I do know that kratom powder is sold online casually on various social marketplaces. But it appears that selling products spiked with kratom extracts requires [Thai] FDA approval. As such, I'm inferring that selling the raw powder does not require any special licensing or approval.

I'd also like to know about kratom cultivation in Thailand. I'm sure smaller scale plantations already exist there, but since it became legal to grow on August 24, 2021 I'm wondering if any new farms have been set up or planned. It wouldn't be ready for harvest in a big way for a few years* but the sooner the better.
*(there are a few ways you could speed this up)

This is relevant to Indonesia's situation in two ways: one, I think it will hinder ban efforts in Indonesia just from a PR stand-point... If it's beneficial enough for a nearby country to legalize it, why would Indonesia actually ban a crop that they've been growing and benefiting from for decades? Two, from an economic standpoint, why would they give up their dominance as the world's biggest kratom producer? By doing so they're just guaranteeing that that capital will go straight to Thailand...

I don't know the dollar numbers off the top of my head but they are certainly significant. The lost revenue would definitely be felt.

Lastly, on a more practical note: there are millions of kratom trees in Indonesia on roughly 30,000 acres of land... That's vast. Enforcing this would be no small task. It would cost a great deal of money just to police it. Not to mention the cost to the farmers to switch to a different crop. This isn't like an annual crop that you just dig up and replant every year. A lot of money and work has gone into developing these trees for many years and I don't think farmers would give them up without a major fight--especially since I can't think of any replacement crops that would really compare economically.

The fact that the WHO/FDA stuff is going on right now does not really work in our favor re: a potential Indonesian ban.

So with all that, I know that someone must know a bit more about all this... The consequences of how this plays out are just way too significant.

TLDR:

Lots of info out there but it's still unclear to me where this [Indonesian ban] is going.

Given the serious implications of a potential Indonesian ban I figure someone has to know more about what's happening on the ground there, right?

And since Thailand has legalized kratom, I'm trying to track business developments there and would appreciate any info. Cultivation, processing, extracts, licensing requirement etc. All of it is of interest to me.

[Sanbutsushin]

Given the serious implications of a potential Indonesian ban I figure someone has to know more about what's happening on the ground there, right?

And since Thailand has legalized kratom, I'm trying to track business developments there and would appreciate any info. Cultivation, processing, extracts, licensing requirement etc. All of it is of interest to me.

I'm wondering about this as well. We have a lot of vendors frequenting these forums so it would be great if any were willing to share info like that from their suppliers/contacts.

[StringThing]

Even if some nations ban it, production would just move elsewhere. It's a damn plant, you can't keep people from having access to it.

I really can't see a ban ever happening at this point. At least, not in the US. It will be left up to local governments I think.

[BallzDeep9]

And since Thailand has legalized kratom, I'm trying to track business developments there and would appreciate any info. Cultivation, processing, extracts,

Lots of news coming out of Thailand - full speed ahead there. Unfortunately what I am reading, is they're going into "Farm crops" and manufacture of extract products... since they nearly eradicated the native wild trees growing there. Sad... here's another article: https://www.chiangraitimes.com/health/t ... d-to-know/

This Week! within 3 days we'll know about the W.H.O. meeting & their Preliminary Review of kratom... the AKA is doing their presentation either tomorrow or Tuesday I believe. By the end of the week, watch for latest news!!

[onespeedstop]

Lots of news coming out of Thailand - full speed ahead there. Unfortunately what I am reading, is they're going into "Farm crops" and manufacture of extract products... since they nearly eradicated the native wild trees growing there.

Hate to hear it, but it's not like the leaves/powder was making them any real money. If they just ship store-ready product (those overblown/over-priced extract shots etc.) then they'll make a LOT more. Hopefully there'll at least be a small market for plain powder, and we can try some in the not-too-distant future. That said, the kind we have now is fine, and I don't expect the Thailand kind to be any better really.

[Fhietra899]

I think i should say once more time... Kratom wouldnt be banned in Indonesia... If you heard about news in Indonesia or in the states that said its would end in 2024, its not gonna happen....

[BallzDeep9]

I think i should say once more time... Kratom wouldnt be banned in Indonesia... If you heard about news in Indonesia or in the states that said its would end in 2024, its not gonna happen....

There you go... As we say in America, "Take that to the Bank"

In Reply to OP, and acct55, and others here... We in USA, always have many question about the future of Kratom! Well, I am optimistic! . We all know demand for kratom BOOM'ed in 2018, and more in 2019 ... estimates are, millions of Americans enjoy kratom as Tea or supplement.

As the market continues to grow... I think (I hope!) we see more diverse product, being shipped. The current "Bulk" practice of large Sea Container loads, must change - READ the transcription from AKA, last week. Read "between the lines", comments by Mr. Mac Haddow regarding the issues of "Big Kratom" USA vendors, (the AKA vendors!) now having a poor reputation among Indonesian suppliers ... Why, because a history of lower prices, even payment scams... have affected the business between 2 countries.

Cheap, Bulk kratom used to make Extract products the "head-shop" AKA vendors such as OPMS - should be very different from Small Batch, High Quality powder (and Crushed Leaf) products!! - I DO agree, that prices for Quality can, and should, be higher - Any price increase, must be shared with Indonesian partners!

AKA mengatakan baru-baru ini, bahwa pemasok tidak senang dengan harga untuk Pengiriman Massal. Vendor kecil di AS, harus mendukung harga yang lebih tinggi! Untuk mitra Indonesia kami, untuk memberikan produk yang berkualitas!

[Herba Rosa]

Even if some nations ban it, production would just move elsewhere. It's a damn plant, you can't keep people from having access to it.

I really can't see a ban ever happening at this point. At least, not in the US. It will be left up to local governments I think.

Problem is, kratom isn't as prolific as cannabis. Cannabis is grown outdoors in many climates and soil types, and indoors fairly easily.

Kratom is unwieldy to grow indoors and only grows well outdoors in a few select regions, climates, and soil types.
Indonesia will always be the ideal place to grow kratom, and the infrastructure is already set up for it.
If it is banned there, it will take time to set up infrastructure in Thailand, and prices will inevitable skyrocket.
Perfect opportunity for big corporations to dominate the market and take over the new Thai supply chain.
Even when it's all set up, it takes time for trees to mature, Thailand has less land to produce it overall, making it more competitive.

An Indo ban would be a serious problem for small businesses and consumers alike.

[Herba Rosa]

I think i should say once more time... Kratom wouldnt be banned in Indonesia... If you heard about news in Indonesia or in the states that said its would end in 2024, its not gonna happen....

There you go... As we say in America, "Take that to the Bank"

In Reply to OP, and acct55, and others here... We in USA, always have many question about the future of Kratom! Well, I am optimistic! . We all know demand for kratom BOOM'ed in 2018, and more in 2019 ... estimates are, millions of Americans enjoy kratom as Tea or supplement.

As the market continues to grow... I think (I hope!) we see more diverse product, being shipped. The current "Bulk" practice of large Sea Container loads, must change - READ the transcription from AKA, last week. Read "between the lines", comments by Mr. Mac Haddow regarding the issues of "Big Kratom" USA vendors, (the AKA vendors!) now having a poor reputation among Indonesian suppliers ... Why, because a history of lower prices, even payment scams... have affected the business between 2 countries.

Cheap, Bulk kratom used to make Extract products the "head-shop" AKA vendors such as OPMS - should be very different from Small Batch, High Quality powder (and Crushed Leaf) products!! - I DO agree, that prices for Quality can, and should, be higher - Any price increase, must be shared with Indonesian partners!

AKA mengatakan baru-baru ini, bahwa pemasok tidak senang dengan harga untuk Pengiriman Massal. Vendor kecil di AS, harus mendukung harga yang lebih tinggi! Untuk mitra Indonesia kami, untuk memberikan produk yang berkualitas!

Right on!

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Honestly, I was thinking about this and discussing with a fellow vendor last night and was feeling extremely pessimistic about the future of small kratom vendors like me.
Worried that large corporations are going to buy up all the small batch stuff from every farmer they can, and sell it at a massively low price, breaking even or taking a loss,
all so they can starve out their smaller competitors in a kind of price-cutting siege. Meanwhile, if customers are getting high quality small batch powder for dirt cheap from big businesses,
why would they support small vendors like Herba Rosa?

But reading your comment here gives me hope.

[acct55]

Even if some nations ban it, production would just move elsewhere. It's a damn plant, you can't keep people from having access to it.

I really can't see a ban ever happening at this point. At least, not in the US. It will be left up to local governments I think.

Problem is, kratom isn't as prolific as cannabis. Cannabis is grown outdoors in many climates and soil types, and indoors fairly easily.

Kratom is unwieldy to grow indoors and only grows well outdoors in a few select regions, climates, and soil types.
Indonesia will always be the ideal place to grow kratom, and the infrastructure is already set up for it.
If it is banned there, it will take time to set up infrastructure in Thailand, and prices will inevitable skyrocket.
Perfect opportunity for big corporations to dominate the market and take over the new Thai supply chain.
Even when it's all set up, it takes time for trees to mature, Thailand has less land to produce it overall, making it more competitive.

An Indo ban would be a serious problem for small businesses and consumers alike.

Yeah, this is why I'm really surprised that people aren't looking into this more... It would be a major shock to the supply chain if Indonesia stopped producing (or just stopped exporting) kratom.

If anyone has any info about what's happening in Indonesia please share.

[StringThing]

Even if some nations ban it, production would just move elsewhere. It's a damn plant, you can't keep people from having access to it.

I really can't see a ban ever happening at this point. At least, not in the US. It will be left up to local governments I think.

Problem is, kratom isn't as prolific as cannabis. Cannabis is grown outdoors in many climates and soil types, and indoors fairly easily.

Kratom is unwieldy to grow indoors and only grows well outdoors in a few select regions, climates, and soil types.
Indonesia will always be the ideal place to grow kratom, and the infrastructure is already set up for it.
If it is banned there, it will take time to set up infrastructure in Thailand, and prices will inevitable skyrocket.
Perfect opportunity for big corporations to dominate the market and take over the new Thai supply chain.
Even when it's all set up, it takes time for trees to mature, Thailand has less land to produce it overall, making it more competitive.

An Indo ban would be a serious problem for small businesses and consumers alike.

This is true, but I believe strongly in the power of our ongoing agricultural revolution.

Even if you shop for organic food at your local farmer's market or whatever, almost nothing is in it's natural state. Whether through genetic modification or centuries/millennia of selective breeding, we've significantly changed quite a lot of plant life. It's the only reason we were able to form these massive and complex societies like we have now.

It's very possible for us to modify the kratom plant to grow in other climates. There are species of banana trees you can grow up as high as zone 4 in the US, which is like the upper Midwest. They don't grow bananas, but they're still very beautiful trees and will survive winter if it doesn't drop too low.

We might not ever have the crazy variety of kratom like we see with cannabis, but we will definitely see some change. Maybe more potent kratom, plants which lean towards either more mature/less mature leaves to give us a more steady white/red/green leaf from the tree. Making it hardier to survive other climates is definitely a good first step.

It will all depend on the legislation to come. Cannabis could've flourished decades earlier had it not been made illegal. But like cannabis, I think kratom is just too useful for this not to happen on some level. It's absolutely exploded in popularity with the internet.

[Herba Rosa]

Even if some nations ban it, production would just move elsewhere. It's a damn plant, you can't keep people from having access to it.

I really can't see a ban ever happening at this point. At least, not in the US. It will be left up to local governments I think.

Problem is, kratom isn't as prolific as cannabis. Cannabis is grown outdoors in many climates and soil types, and indoors fairly easily.

Kratom is unwieldy to grow indoors and only grows well outdoors in a few select regions, climates, and soil types.
Indonesia will always be the ideal place to grow kratom, and the infrastructure is already set up for it.
If it is banned there, it will take time to set up infrastructure in Thailand, and prices will inevitable skyrocket.
Perfect opportunity for big corporations to dominate the market and take over the new Thai supply chain.
Even when it's all set up, it takes time for trees to mature, Thailand has less land to produce it overall, making it more competitive.

An Indo ban would be a serious problem for small businesses and consumers alike.

This is true, but I believe strongly in the power of our ongoing agricultural revolution.

Even if you shop for organic food at your local farmer's market or whatever, almost nothing is in it's natural state. Whether through genetic modification or centuries/millennia of selective breeding, we've significantly changed quite a lot of plant life. It's the only reason we were able to form these massive and complex societies like we have now.

It's very possible for us to modify the kratom plant to grow in other climates. There are species of banana trees you can grow up as high as zone 4 in the US, which is like the upper Midwest. They don't grow bananas, but they're still very beautiful trees and will survive winter if it doesn't drop too low.

We might not ever have the crazy variety of kratom like we see with cannabis, but we will definitely see some change. Maybe more potent kratom, plants which lean towards either more mature/less mature leaves to give us a more steady white/red/green leaf from the tree. Making it hardier to survive other climates is definitely a good first step.

It will all depend on the legislation to come. Cannabis could've flourished decades earlier had it not been made illegal. But like cannabis, I think kratom is just too useful for this not to happen on some level. It's absolutely exploded in popularity with the internet.

As long as it's done through artificial selection and not genetic modification in a laboratory, I'm all for it!
Artificial selection takes many generations to induce significant change, though, so even if we started now, it would take decades, at least.
And I wonder how such a change would affect the alkaloid profiles of the leaves.

Hopefully kratom continues to grow in popularity! Vendors like me need the market to grow so there can be room for all of us to compete fairly.

[Fhietra899]

I think i should say once more time... Kratom wouldnt be banned in Indonesia... If you heard about news in Indonesia or in the states that said its would end in 2024, its not gonna happen....

There you go... As we say in America, "Take that to the Bank"

In Reply to OP, and acct55, and others here... We in USA, always have many question about the future of Kratom! Well, I am optimistic! . We all know demand for kratom BOOM'ed in 2018, and more in 2019 ... estimates are, millions of Americans enjoy kratom as Tea or supplement.

As the market continues to grow... I think (I hope!) we see more diverse product, being shipped. The current "Bulk" practice of large Sea Container loads, must change - READ the transcription from AKA, last week. Read "between the lines", comments by Mr. Mac Haddow regarding the issues of "Big Kratom" USA vendors, (the AKA vendors!) now having a poor reputation among Indonesian suppliers ... Why, because a history of lower prices, even payment scams... have affected the business between 2 countries.

Cheap, Bulk kratom used to make Extract products the "head-shop" AKA vendors such as OPMS - should be very different from Small Batch, High Quality powder (and Crushed Leaf) products!! - I DO agree, that prices for Quality can, and should, be higher - Any price increase, must be shared with Indonesian partners!

AKA mengatakan baru-baru ini, bahwa pemasok tidak senang dengan harga untuk Pengiriman Massal. Vendor kecil di AS, harus mendukung harga yang lebih tinggi! Untuk mitra Indonesia kami, untuk memberikan produk yang berkualitas!

Sorry for late reply, i was rarely open the forum..

I missed talk to you Balz,, its been a long time didnt discuss about kratom situations.

As i know there's several ppl cooperate "dumping" this commodity, they buy at really low prices in Indo, and drop the prices in US. Even they realize they got really bunk kratom that processed at blue tarp and dirty feet back and forth at the leaves. And the fun fact is there's plenty people in Indo wants to help them to get the low prices kratom and pressing the farmers to sell at low prices.

We have fight to make this commodity get regulate in here and make goverment organize the trade and take part in quality control for this commodity, i hope its will regulated at 2022...

[Fhietra899]

I think i should say once more time... Kratom wouldnt be banned in Indonesia... If you heard about news in Indonesia or in the states that said its would end in 2024, its not gonna happen....

There you go... As we say in America, "Take that to the Bank"

In Reply to OP, and acct55, and others here... We in USA, always have many question about the future of Kratom! Well, I am optimistic! . We all know demand for kratom BOOM'ed in 2018, and more in 2019 ... estimates are, millions of Americans enjoy kratom as Tea or supplement.

As the market continues to grow... I think (I hope!) we see more diverse product, being shipped. The current "Bulk" practice of large Sea Container loads, must change - READ the transcription from AKA, last week. Read "between the lines", comments by Mr. Mac Haddow regarding the issues of "Big Kratom" USA vendors, (the AKA vendors!) now having a poor reputation among Indonesian suppliers ... Why, because a history of lower prices, even payment scams... have affected the business between 2 countries.

Cheap, Bulk kratom used to make Extract products the "head-shop" AKA vendors such as OPMS - should be very different from Small Batch, High Quality powder (and Crushed Leaf) products!! - I DO agree, that prices for Quality can, and should, be higher - Any price increase, must be shared with Indonesian partners!

AKA mengatakan baru-baru ini, bahwa pemasok tidak senang dengan harga untuk Pengiriman Massal. Vendor kecil di AS, harus mendukung harga yang lebih tinggi! Untuk mitra Indonesia kami, untuk memberikan produk yang berkualitas!

Right on!

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Honestly, I was thinking about this and discussing with a fellow vendor last night and was feeling extremely pessimistic about the future of small kratom vendors like me.
Worried that large corporations are going to buy up all the small batch stuff from every farmer they can, and sell it at a massively low price, breaking even or taking a loss,
all so they can starve out their smaller competitors in a kind of price-cutting siege. Meanwhile, if customers are getting high quality small batch powder for dirt cheap from big businesses,
why would they support small vendors like Herba Rosa?

But reading your comment here gives me hope.

Many US vendors got the impact from "dumping" activity that huge company made. Many Indo vendors that sell good kratom has gettin down in sales, many "real" High quality kratom get stacked in our warehouse. There's actually a way to make it back like 2018, but its need US ppl that wants to fight to realize it..

[StringThing]

Problem is, kratom isn't as prolific as cannabis. Cannabis is grown outdoors in many climates and soil types, and indoors fairly easily.

Kratom is unwieldy to grow indoors and only grows well outdoors in a few select regions, climates, and soil types.
Indonesia will always be the ideal place to grow kratom, and the infrastructure is already set up for it.
If it is banned there, it will take time to set up infrastructure in Thailand, and prices will inevitable skyrocket.
Perfect opportunity for big corporations to dominate the market and take over the new Thai supply chain.
Even when it's all set up, it takes time for trees to mature, Thailand has less land to produce it overall, making it more competitive.

An Indo ban would be a serious problem for small businesses and consumers alike.

This is true, but I believe strongly in the power of our ongoing agricultural revolution.

Even if you shop for organic food at your local farmer's market or whatever, almost nothing is in it's natural state. Whether through genetic modification or centuries/millennia of selective breeding, we've significantly changed quite a lot of plant life. It's the only reason we were able to form these massive and complex societies like we have now.

It's very possible for us to modify the kratom plant to grow in other climates. There are species of banana trees you can grow up as high as zone 4 in the US, which is like the upper Midwest. They don't grow bananas, but they're still very beautiful trees and will survive winter if it doesn't drop too low.

We might not ever have the crazy variety of kratom like we see with cannabis, but we will definitely see some change. Maybe more potent kratom, plants which lean towards either more mature/less mature leaves to give us a more steady white/red/green leaf from the tree. Making it hardier to survive other climates is definitely a good first step.

It will all depend on the legislation to come. Cannabis could've flourished decades earlier had it not been made illegal. But like cannabis, I think kratom is just too useful for this not to happen on some level. It's absolutely exploded in popularity with the internet.

As long as it's done through artificial selection and not genetic modification in a laboratory, I'm all for it!
Artificial selection takes many generations to induce significant change, though, so even if we started now, it would take decades, at least.
And I wonder how such a change would affect the alkaloid profiles of the leaves.

Hopefully kratom continues to grow in popularity! Vendors like me need the market to grow so there can be room for all of us to compete fairly.

Why no GMO? As far as I know, they've never been linked to any kind of safety concern. They result in overall less pesticide use and increase yield to a point where world hunger is now a solvable concern. The glyphosate formulas (not the glyphosates themselves) that GMOs use may be linked to cancer, but it's still a lot better than spraying our crops with arsenic and sulfur and kerosene. Something like 75% of food in the US contains GMO ingredients. IDK that there's any way back from GMOs at this point without significantly effecting the world's food supply. Really nothing stopping kratom from becoming a part of that system.

[Herba Rosa]

This is true, but I believe strongly in the power of our ongoing agricultural revolution.

Even if you shop for organic food at your local farmer's market or whatever, almost nothing is in it's natural state. Whether through genetic modification or centuries/millennia of selective breeding, we've significantly changed quite a lot of plant life. It's the only reason we were able to form these massive and complex societies like we have now.

It's very possible for us to modify the kratom plant to grow in other climates. There are species of banana trees you can grow up as high as zone 4 in the US, which is like the upper Midwest. They don't grow bananas, but they're still very beautiful trees and will survive winter if it doesn't drop too low.

We might not ever have the crazy variety of kratom like we see with cannabis, but we will definitely see some change. Maybe more potent kratom, plants which lean towards either more mature/less mature leaves to give us a more steady white/red/green leaf from the tree. Making it hardier to survive other climates is definitely a good first step.

It will all depend on the legislation to come. Cannabis could've flourished decades earlier had it not been made illegal. But like cannabis, I think kratom is just too useful for this not to happen on some level. It's absolutely exploded in popularity with the internet.

As long as it's done through artificial selection and not genetic modification in a laboratory, I'm all for it!
Artificial selection takes many generations to induce significant change, though, so even if we started now, it would take decades, at least.
And I wonder how such a change would affect the alkaloid profiles of the leaves.

Hopefully kratom continues to grow in popularity! Vendors like me need the market to grow so there can be room for all of us to compete fairly.

Why no GMO? As far as I know, they've never been linked to any kind of safety concern. They result in overall less pesticide use and increase yield to a point where world hunger is now a solvable concern. The glyphosate formulas (not the glyphosates themselves) that GMOs use may be linked to cancer, but it's still a lot better than spraying our crops with arsenic and sulfur and kerosene. Something like 75% of food in the US contains GMO ingredients. IDK that there's any way back from GMOs at this point without significantly effecting the world's food supply. Really nothing stopping kratom from becoming a part of that system.

I used to be sort of a young activist as a teenager, when it comes to GMOs, back during in the early 2010s around the time of the California GMO labeling bill. I did tons of research, wrote papers, gave speeches, and looked into it on my own.
It was an obsession of mine. I was getting super into biology, agriculture, and social structures.

Genetic Modification is not a natural process of evolution, as it does not give the environment ample time to respond to the genetic changes in that organism. Most biotech companies work with chemical companies to produce plants that are chemical-resistant. All so they can use more fertilizer, herbicide, and pesticide without damaging the crop. No one wants that on their kratom, lol. Plus, it kills birds and pollinators. Some GMO crops, like Bt Cotton, have herbicides built into their skin, which causes harm to the natural ecosystem by killing insects that may be important for keeping the balance of nature. Most GMOs are also sterile, producing no seed. That way, biotech companies can patent the seeds and stamp out heirloom varieties, so they can gain further leverage over farmers. Hopefully pushing small farms out of business so their big ag. allies can swoop in, buy the land cheap, and consolidate for scale.

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, or saying I'm right or wrong about GMOs...
I just personally would rather not support it, for the reasons above, and more. Not enough studies about the long-term affects on the body either for my taste...

So, all in all, for Herba Rosa, I would like to do my best to avoid it. Lots of people in my target market don't like them either. Lots of hippies and such.