Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

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Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by fusedflora »

I’ve been working on this for awhile and wanted to share some trends. Though I don’t think this is “the way,” to look at things, I certainly think it could be beneficial for some. I see a lot of questions about breaks, tolerance, etc… Basically, a lot of people are trying to get their grams per day down. This is important, and if you’re not constantly considering this, I wanted to demonstrate why perhaps you should.

I’ll review three vignettes, a user with a dose of 3g, one with 5g, and one with 10g. I’ll discuss the absorption of mitragynine of each one. I will not account for differences in metabolism, breaks, any tolerance reducers used, priming the body, or potentiation in the examples. I will consider a standard of 1% mitragynine and consider a half-life of 24hrs. Though this study data I’m using for half-life is a small sample size and of long time users (17.5 years), it is conservative and one of the only studies into half-life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425236/

Respectively, the 3g user receives 30mg of mitragynine in a dose, the 5g user 50mg, and that 10g user 100mg (these correspond to first day dose). I’ll review a week timeframe for 1 dose a day. Yes, I realize I rounded.

For the 3g user, on redosing on day two he/she now has 45mg of mitragynine in their system, day three around 52mg, day four around 56mg, day five 58mg, day six 59mg, and day seven 60mg. In seven days the user has effectively doubled the amount in their system. Consecutive days after this continues to build much more slowly as you can see the numbers level out (flatten the curve).

For the 5g user, on redosing on day two he/she now has 75mg of mitragynine in their system, day three around 87mg, day four around 93mg, day five 96mg, day six 98mg, and day seven 99mg. In seven days the user has effectively doubled the amount in their system, same as the first example. Consecutive days this continues building slowly.

Essentially, the same is true for the 10g user, having roughly 198mg in their system at the end of seven days.

You can imagine what this does to your tolerance, effective doubling the amount in your system after seven days (even though your intake remains constant).

This really gets complicated when 2 or more doses are presented a day. At this point I think most of us are at 2-3 a days, so you can see how much just over seven days we’re bombarding our system with mitragynine. This doesn’t include the build up of 7-hydroxymitragynine Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl either (both of which are more potent and have different half-lives).

So what does this mean? Well, short perhaps we’re going about dosing the wrong way with a standard one size fits all dose.

Most folks tend to notice diminished effects after 6 hours from the anecdotal evidence across the forum. At least that’s how I feel. If that’s the case, then most likely, in six hours, whatever mitragynine in our system is the magic number we need to feel consistent and desired effects.

Now if you see the numbers on a curve, as above, dose increasing mitragynine in a system quickly at first and slowly leveling off. The half-life curve would be very similar but inverse. In the first 6 hours, we lose most of that 50% (that refers to half-life), effectively leaving 80% of the mitragynine in our system (see chart below) with the current variables.

Image

So accounting for time for the dose to kick in… What if you just redosed at 5hrs the amount of mitragynine to account for the difference (think waves of ebbs and flows) and turned this 80% back into 100%, rather than 180% that we’re used to doing?

For awhile, I think I’ve shared my approach to testing a new strain, starting at 1.5g dose and redosing 0.5g until I feel effects. I quickly began to realize that I was having far superior burns that were lasting 8 or so hours. I thought, why does this work?

So I started working the math and trying it. Now I can’t say this works cold turkey, as you can see on the graph above, even after 110hrs, there’s mitragynine still in your system with the current variables. I took 10 days off, and tried my dose (my typical average is 3g over a duration, but I started at 2.2g), five hours later I redosed 0.5g and guess what… It hit just like the 2.2g…. Continuing with the smaller doses provided the same effects, though this crept up over the time, 0.6g 0.8g, etc.., it was much more effective to prime and do sub grams than my previous methods of 2.2g first dose, 2.4 on the eighth, 2.6 on the twelfth, etc… I certainly saved a lot of leaf than I’d have otherwise (at least 100g a month for myself).

I recreated this three more times over the last 9 months. My wife did once with similar results. Though this is a small sample size, I can say it works relatively well to keep the burn going efficiently and effectively. Doses the next day require a bit of calculation if not spaced at 6hrs for my napkin math, but I truly believe it’s worth it. If you don’t believe it, try it for yourself. Though again, I would advise that there are other variables present here. The biggest for me is that I absolutely think the half-life is actually 14-18hrs in my body. Perhaps the better question than the one we always ask: how much is your dose, would be what is your priming dose and the half-life in your system? If I have a lot of time to take a look at this, I may send some urine samples off to be sure, we’ll see.

I won’t lie, I haven’t been religious in keeping this up, but for those having tolerance trouble, perhaps this helps as another way to see how your body processes and the amounts of your doses in your system.
Last edited by fusedflora on Thu May 28, 2020 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by BobDylanKratom »

Thank you for posting such a detailed account about dosing and timing. I’ve already bookmarked this and plan to re-read it a couple more time to let it all sink in. This is the first objective explanation of the “less is more” theory that I’ve come across. As someone with tolerance issues who has yet to take a full break, I find this option intriguing. I first need to start thinking about what my “optimal” dose is and take it from there. Thanks again - you’ve given me a lot to think about!
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Joshgreenhorn »

Wow that is such a great read! Thankyou for sharing that Shaun! I just might have to give this a try!
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Rohan »

Great post, looking forward to trying out this strategy. Currently using 4g, 3 times daily (around 6 years now). Found that switching from 3g, 4 times daily to the current method was helping a lot with making the burn last longer so hopefully this will give even more improvements. A python script may be useful for automagically calculating the appropriate dosing based on individual circumstances (so you don't have to redo all the math every time or for every person).

Can you clarify the axes labels for the graphs though? Is the Y axis body concentration in mg of mitragynine and the X axis time in hours?
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by fusedflora »

Rohan wrote:Great post, looking forward to trying out this strategy. Currently using 4g, 3 times daily (around 6 years now). Found that switching from 3g, 4 times daily to the current method was helping a lot with making the burn last longer so hopefully this will give even more improvements. A python script may be useful for automagically calculating the appropriate dosing based on individual circumstances (so you don't have to redo all the math every time or for every person).

Can you clarify the axes labels for the graphs though? Is the Y axis body concentration in mg of mitragynine and the X axis time in hours?
I coded back in days of C+ and fortran.... But that indeed would be a useful script to write.

Vertical would be mg of mitragynine in a system, horizontal hours.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by BallzDeep9 »

the same is true for the 10g user, having roughly 198mg in their system at the end of seven days.
But Mitragynine / Kratom, IS still a partial agonist.. no matter how much IS put into the system? I'd like to see a chart of "optimal effects" where, the average human can tolerate X amount before receptors get "maxed out" and, at some point, NO further positive effects can be had ?? We know that exists..? only there hasn't been medical studies to give us that info... the point of saturation, lets say, would vary somewhat according to individual tolerance. But the fact remains, partial agonist = effects limited in that regard...

So what does this mean? Well, short perhaps we’re going about dosing the wrong way with a standard one size fits all dose.
Well it seems there HAS to be a range for standard dose, recommended serving, :). for average size weight human being? who is NOT opioid tolerant - Yes a large # of kratom users, appear to be ex drug addicts w/ high opioid tolerance.. Many recently come off subs or pills or whatever. So that skews the population here. That needs to be explored (Time and Money!), but, "people with blown out receptors" are not going to FEEL it the same anyway?

I certainly saved a lot of leaf than I’d have otherwise (at least 100g a month for myself).
Thanks for posting! Imagine that.. a vendor working to help the entire community. Even if it means less sales for his business? :P I think "Less is More" means that more people learn to enjoy kratom, pass the word to help their friends.. and long term are better customers who really appreciate quality leaf!
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by fusedflora »

BallzDeep9 wrote:
the same is true for the 10g user, having roughly 198mg in their system at the end of seven days.
But Mitragynine / Kratom, IS still a partial agonist.. no matter how much IS put into the system? I'd like to see a chart of "optimal effects" where, the average human can tolerate X amount before receptors get "maxed out" and, at some point, NO further positive effects can be had ?? We know that exists..? only there hasn't been medical studies to give us that info... the point of saturation, lets say, would vary somewhat according to individual tolerance. But the fact remains, partial agonist = effects limited in that regard...

So what does this mean? Well, short perhaps we’re going about dosing the wrong way with a standard one size fits all dose.
Well it seems there HAS to be a range for standard dose, recommended serving, :). for average size weight human being? who is NOT opioid tolerant - Yes a large # of kratom users, appear to be ex drug addicts w/ high opioid tolerance.. Many recently come off subs or pills or whatever. So that skews the population here. That needs to be explored (Time and Money!), but, "people with blown out receptors" are not going to FEEL it the same anyway?
Absolutely! There's a point of diminishing returns for sure, as I can take 2.6-4.2g of the same strain and have effects, at 4.2-4.5 I'll have wobbles and 4.5g starts vomit city. I'm sure there's a ceiling well before the body rejects it, but suspect it may be different for everyone. More studies need to be done, as I haven't been able to determine that yet, but am sure you're right.

I also agree there's prob a recommended serving for new folks, folks with previous other like substances, and just plain tolerant folks. Again, not necessarily "the way," but something that worked for me. Full disclosure, alcohol was my addiction, and though it screwed a lot of things up for me, I'm lucky it didn't affect receptors. But yes, I am a variable myself, that's for catching that for me, I didn't articulate that.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by brave777 »

If empty stomack, my stick to is around 3 grams, if i am going to eat in the morning with kratom, its between 4-6 grams. Or else if i dont eat and take 4-6 grams i can get sleepy right away or get unwanted effects. So always eat with kratom if you going to increase dose would be advisable. 1-3 grams on empty stomach. But i am always hungry in the morning so, forced to eat and take around 4 to 6 grams.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Banana pants »

Very interesting. Similar to how we use insulin on a sliding scale to maintain blood sugar levels. Hmmmmmmm.....
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Supersonic75 »

Amazing post. Thanks, Shaun!
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Traditional_Plum »

Very interesting. If one were to do a t-break, how many days would be best? And how should dosage change following such a break? Thanks
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by oftheshire »

Interesting! Thx for this post.
I’ve heard before that second dose of the day (maybe 8 hours after first or whatever) can be smaller than the first. Gonna try this tn.

Would be great if all vendors started including test results for each individual flavor. Then we could start calculating and basing doses off the percentages X the amount. I feel like we’d learn much quicker this way. It’s really a guess every time we burn with all “strains” having different %s of mit and 7ohm and I’m sure people would be able to start getting better burns more often if they could properly calculate these things
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by PistolsAtDawn »

I would like to (and will at least for myself) call this Space Jumping after the upgrade ability in the Metroid game series.

For the unfamiliar, the Space Jump is an ability that let's you keep jumping in mid air after an initial higher, normal jump. If you were to plot the path of the jump, it would be a very similar curve as what fusedflora describes here.

This morning after a three day taper / sub with hirsuta/javanica/stem & vein, I took a gram of green maeng da then another half gram an hour later. I feel pretty good considering my normal dose was 3g at once. I'm going to try to take about a .3 gram dose in 5 hours to see if I can maintain the feeling.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by tasha99 »

Wow. Thank you, fusedflora, for a really informative post. I tried this yesterday. Normally, I take 2g on an empty stomach, and 3g if I've eaten, adjusting if the kratom is especially strong or weak. So if I took 2g in the morning before breakfast and decided to redose, I'd take 3g later--and often find that second dose didn't do that much.

So yesterday was 2g, then about 6 hours later, 1g. I felt like I did on the first dose! It's hard to fathom how 1g could seem like more than 3g, but the explanation here about half-lifes and remaining kratom in the body makes sense. I noticed that my amounts were much higher than proposed, so today, it's been 1.5g, and I'll try a .5g redose if necessary.

I can already tell that the 1.5g (of Rhino's Green Mountain) was plenty--I've been taking too much, even on the first dose, I think.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by fusedflora »

Traditional_Plum wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:02 pm Very interesting. If one were to do a t-break, how many days would be best? And how should dosage change following such a break? Thanks
As long as possible for best effects. Changes are unique to the person. After 14 days, I can half my pre-break numbers. After only 4 days off, or 7 days on other botanicals, I might be 20% lower.
oftheshire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:07 pm Interesting! Thx for this post.
I’ve heard before that second dose of the day (maybe 8 hours after first or whatever) can be smaller than the first. Gonna try this tn.

Would be great if all vendors started including test results for each individual flavor. Then we could start calculating and basing doses off the percentages X the amount. I feel like we’d learn much quicker this way. It’s really a guess every time we burn with all “strains” having different %s of mit and 7ohm and I’m sure people would be able to start getting better burns more often if they could properly calculate these things
We do test, the problem is Kratom typically has 4-12 major alkaloids and about the same number of minor ones. Though this example is for largely just the mu receptor, to really do it right, you'd have 4-5 of these charter for GABA, acetylcholine, kappa and delta, NMDA, and a few other receptors (some folks focus on very different this in leaf that meet their goals). In saying, 7ohm and mitragynine are not solely responsible for what you feel. For instance, I've had 1.9% Mitra batches that aren't as effective as 1.5% batches, not just for me, but popularity proves as well. Short, I find very little use in the numbers, outside of bio contaminates (salmonella and e coli) and metal contaminates, testing that you elude to isn't as productive to planning as just knowing the batch is good for you or not.
PistolsAtDawn wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:44 am I would like to (and will at least for myself) call this Space Jumping after the upgrade ability in the Metroid game series.

For the unfamiliar, the Space Jump is an ability that let's you keep jumping in mid air after an initial higher, normal jump. If you were to plot the path of the jump, it would be a very similar curve as what fusedflora describes here.

This morning after a three day taper / sub with hirsuta/javanica/stem & vein, I took a gram of green maeng da then another half gram an hour later. I feel pretty good considering my normal dose was 3g at once. I'm going to try to take about a .3 gram dose in 5 hours to see if I can maintain the feeling.
We're glad you actually tried it. I know it can be a pain to keep it up, but where viable, we think this method can help folks use less.

I love the space jump, always made the game so much easier instead of messing up those wall jumps.
tasha99 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:23 pm Wow. Thank you, fusedflora, for a really informative post. I tried this yesterday. Normally, I take 2g on an empty stomach, and 3g if I've eaten, adjusting if the kratom is especially strong or weak. So if I took 2g in the morning before breakfast and decided to redose, I'd take 3g later--and often find that second dose didn't do that much.

So yesterday was 2g, then about 6 hours later, 1g. I felt like I did on the first dose! It's hard to fathom how 1g could seem like more than 3g, but the explanation here about half-lifes and remaining kratom in the body makes sense. I noticed that my amounts were much higher than proposed, so today, it's been 1.5g, and I'll try a .5g redose if necessary.

I can already tell that the 1.5g (of Rhino's Green Mountain) was plenty--I've been taking too much, even on the first dose, I think.
The proof is in the pudding. Don't knock it until you try it. TBH we were truly amazed the first few times we did it as well. Using less of of our favorite batches is always on our mind too.
Last edited by fusedflora on Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by BallzDeep9 »

PistolsAtDawn wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:44 am This morning after a three day taper / sub with hirsuta/javanica/stem & vein, I took a gram of green maeng da then another half gram an hour later. I feel pretty good considering my normal dose was 3g at once.
That seems about right. You didn't do a complete break. But a 3-Day taper still helps to lower tolerance... :P I do that w/ Agmatine Sulfate 1g at night before bedtime. And maybe a serving of Black Seed Oil... do that for a few days... Tolerance is restored! Receptors are "up" regulated, meaning... more sensitive. Around HALF as much kratom ? gets you the same good effects. And, you also have "headroom", meaning... you CAN enjoy very strong effects, @ just the same 3g dose/ Or enjoy some Extract for a day.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by oftheshire »

We do test, the problem is Kratom typically has 4-12 major alkaloids and about the same number of minor ones. Though this example is for largely just the mu receptor, to really do it right, you'd have 4-5 of these charter for GABA, acetylcholine, kappa and delta, NMDA, and a few other receptors (some folks focus on very different this in leaf that meet their goals). In saying, 7ohm and mitragynine are not solely responsible for what you feel. For instance, I've had 1.9% Mitra batches that aren't as effective as 1.5% batches, not just for me, but popularity proves as well. Short, I find very little use in the numbers, outside of bio contaminates (salmonella and e coli) and metal contaminates, testing that you elude to isn't as productive to planning as just knowing the batch is good for you or not.



(Idk how to quote a reply properly on here lol) yeah I wasn’t referring to u guys with the testing comment. I was more saying that some vendors will release a single test result as an umbrella for all the strains being dropped, when you think there’d be individual results for each strain.

So you’re saying numbers couldn’t help one dial in a proper dose? I feel like if enough people did personal studies using test results of all the alks that you referred to (not just 7ohm and mit) we would slowly be able to realize what alkaloids effect things differently.

With weed for example, a lot of people think higher thc content automatically means better/stronger weed, which isn’t the case. Like you said with kratom, there are a lot more alkaloids in play than just thc, thca, cbd, etc. a lot of weed companies have been pretty specific with the percentages/presence of certain alkaloids, making it a lot easier for individuals to find a pattern in what alkaloids personally give them the best effects, which is different for everyone. Idk if “knowing which batch is good for you” works for me. I mix 2 strains per dose so it’s always a diff alkaloid makeup. Some days my favorite strain hits amazing in a certain combo and after taking a break from it (or not), and under the same circumstances but with a different strain being mixed with it, it doesn’t hit at all. I know a lot of factors come into play with kratom down to the smallest things, which make it hard to gage things, but I think having specific test results could help with this scenario.

Thanks for the reply FF, love these discussions
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by PistolsAtDawn »

fusedflora wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:02 pm We're glad you actually tried it. I know it can be a pain to keep it up, but where viable, we think this method can help folks use less.

I love the space jump, always made the game so much easier instead of messing up those wall jumps.
I'm glad you shared the information! I use kratom as medicine (even though it's very enjoyable medicine!) so I need to do whatever I can to keep it working well. I'm also glad you're a Metroid fan! The new one - Metroid Dread - was amazing, and I'd recommend it if you haven't played it.
BallzDeep9 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:07 pm That seems about right. You didn't do a complete break. But a 3-Day taper still helps to lower tolerance... :P I do that w/ Agmatine Sulfate 1g at night before bedtime. And maybe a serving of Black Seed Oil... do that for a few days... Tolerance is restored! Receptors are "up" regulated, meaning... more sensitive. Around HALF as much kratom ? gets you the same good effects. And, you also have "headroom", meaning... you CAN enjoy very strong effects, @ just the same 3g dose/ Or enjoy some Extract for a day.
Yep! I use those too, I think thanks to your recommendation. They seem to be very effective, and I get a small amount of pain relief from the black seed oil. I can't do a complete break because I can't stand to be in that much chronic pain anymore. Not after existing that way for years before finding kratom. The hirsuta / javanica / stem & vein was just enough to keep me out of the worst of my pain, but lacking otherwise.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Badgame85 »

Wow, what a read! Simply put an incredible and thorough analysis of intake and effects. I’ve bookmarked this and will plan to follow some of these guidelines as well. Thank you Shaun!!
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Redlion40 »

So you're basically saying do a priming serving and then later smaller servings to get yourself back to 100%, not take full servings which would put you over 100% correct?
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by Redlion40 »

A study from the University of Utah is saying that the half-life of mitragynine is 3h and for 7-hydroxymitragynine it's 2.5h.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

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Redlion40 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:13 am A study from the University of Utah is saying that the half-life of mitragynine is 3h and for 7-hydroxymitragynine it's 2.5h.
Interesting, do you have a link for this study? I can't seem to find it via google.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by K-fox »

Interesting how that works. I’ve also noticed that starting with 1g doses and building it up with 0.5-1g bumps throughout the day makes it an overall more rewarding experience. I’ve cut my daily ration in half using this method.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

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Redlion40 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:09 am So you're basically saying do a priming serving and then later smaller servings to get yourself back to 100%, not take full servings which would put you over 100% correct?
yes, and please share the Utah study, I'd be interested to see that. I've seen one on rodents/animals, but the only human one on half-life I posted.
K-fox wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:45 pm Interesting how that works. I’ve also noticed that starting with 1g doses and building it up with 0.5-1g bumps throughout the day makes it an overall more rewarding experience. I’ve cut my daily ration in half using this method.
Glad you're finding success, we tend to believe most would see the same results.
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by K-fox »

fusedflora wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:50 pm
Redlion40 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:09 am So you're basically saying do a priming serving and then later smaller servings to get yourself back to 100%, not take full servings which would put you over 100% correct?
yes, and please share the Utah study, I'd be interested to see that. I've seen one on rodents/animals, but the only human one on half-life I posted.
K-fox wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:45 pm Interesting how that works. I’ve also noticed that starting with 1g doses and building it up with 0.5-1g bumps throughout the day makes it an overall more rewarding experience. I’ve cut my daily ration in half using this method.
Glad you're finding success, we tend to believe most would see the same results.
Thanks. I agree. When first starting the new method, you just have to try and ignore that part of your brain trying to tell you it’s not going to be enough. The initial 1g morning dose is quite potent for me now, when before it took 2-3g to get the same results. Plus, I don’t get as much of that mood drop that I used to get from a larger dose after its peak.
pray4peace4
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by pray4peace4 »

Shaun, your method makes a whole lot of sense & explains quite a bit of the strange quirks of kratom dosing & effects. For the last month my dosing was producing very unremarkable results. So after reading your explanation I decided to modify it a bit, mostly because I'm impatient, and the next morning made all 3 of my doses that day at 0.5g. Nothing happened, which is what I expected. But the following day I started with a 1g dose. Wow! That was really impressive! A 1g dose hit me stronger than I'd had in a long time. Now the following 2 doses that day didn't do squat, which is understandable. But now, as I've returned to closer to normal doses there's been a noticeable improvement.

I don't know about others reading through your description, but significant parts were confusing to my admittedly old brain cells. Can anyone create a mathematical formula or a batch file where we can input the necessary numbers & have it calculate how to do the dosing? I'd sure like to try your method out exactly the way you explained, but I just can't grasp it yet.
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PistolsAtDawn
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by PistolsAtDawn »

I'm sorry to report that this method quickly lost it's effectiveness for me with respect to managing chronic pain. I'm going to try it again though. Soon, hopefully. I really think there's something to this. I wish we could know for sure what the half-life is and how much each dose bumps up the amount in our system. Maybe I'll stick to a single vendor next time instead of rotating like I normally do.
brimarq
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Re: Some thoughts and numbers behind "Less is More."

Post by brimarq »

Thanks for this helpful post. I know that both my receptors and wallet could use a break from bombardment. :D
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