11/23/18 Update: Ohio Raids | Illinois Death | LD50

[bubbles]

Hi guys! I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving and happy friday!

On 11/20/2018 we started seeing reports of kratom being seized from brick and mortar stores on Columbus, Ohio. The information checks out and it looks like they are not done yet.

11/20/18 18:00 EST (CastIronMystic)
The Waterbeds N Stuff on Soldano Blvd was raided today and all the kratom and Kratom products were taken. I heard this from my vendor who is concerned about being next (Update: He was next.) I then called Waterbeds and confirmed and it is sadly very true. Apparently the police were polite and respectful but still took all the product.

This source comes from my vendor. I don’t have any media links as there are none. I am a normal person posting what I know here in the hopes that other people will post what they know and we can figure this out together. Since making this post I’ve had a lot of private messages accusing me of fear mongering and demanding my sources. Believe me or don’t. I am posting what I find out as I find it out.

So far there are no media links. I emailed and called the AKA and I’m sure the vendors did as well.

Update 1: AKA Response: Hello _____ We are tracking this and are contacting authorities in Ohio. Working hard to stop this. Pete Candland Aka

Update 2: At least two large Columbus kratom vendors have been raided. In addition to the vendors, Waterbeds N Stuff (head shop), The Joint (head shop), were all raided as of Nov 21.

Update 3: Update: Ohio Department of Agriculture has made kratom illegal to sell. Every vendor must remove it from their shelves or have it confiscated. Speculation is, someone in Illinois has died from a kratom overdose*. He had 40x the normal dose of kratom in his system. Benzos were in his system but the kratom is being blamed of course and this was enough to give them room to do this.

*I will put the info on the death in IL at the end of this post

11/22/18 16:54 EST (Nuthead77)
The warrants were from the Ohio department of agriculture and the justification was that they were selling a product with medical claims (as in a drug) without fda approval. This is not speculation this from me speaking with a friend who is a local dealer and directly with the dept of ag. I have a meeting tomorrow with the director of the dept of ag so hopefully I will a: be able to figure out all the justifications and who’s behind it and b: talk some sense into her to push back against these illegal raids. Also all of the local vendors are getting together under a single attorney and filing an injunction.

11/23/18 07:47 EST (Drew/Nerds)

• Regarding: NutHead77 mentioning that warrants from Ohio Department of Agriculture were for sales of unapproved drugs.

This can be proven by the FDA in court in as simple as a store allowing reviews and someone posting "Kratom helps treat my XYZ illness/disease/etc" and the social media account for the store clicking like on the reviews. This is why reviews of products like kratom are incredibly dangerous. Having looked at the website and Facebook account for at least one that was raided it's fairly obvious that it could be easily proven as they either dont understand the laws surrounding dietary ingredients/supplements or just thought they dont apply to them. Hopefully the stores staff were not repeating medical claims/advice/etc but it happens often enough with both store fronts and online sellers, FDA and state compliance officers can and likely will try to make purchases form you in store and online. This uptick in raids may mean that the folks in Ohio pushing the ban may not see success in that and so they are going after the more enforceable way of getting it out of the state. Dont be surprised if there is a lot more of the raids as Wednesday seemed focused on the Columbus area and their enforcement folks only can handle so much in any one day.

• Don't make medical claims if you sell, market or import kratom.
  
  Don't do reviews on store/vendor websites or social media that in any way even infer Kratom is a treatment/cure for whatever ails you, it may be cause for enforcement. If you are a vendor/importer of kratom maybe rethink allowing reviews at all if you arent going to police what's being posted hourly.
  
  If you go in to stores and hear staff there make any claims outside what is legal for dietary ingredients/supplements, speak to them after that and maybe even offer to send them links to what DSHEA and the regulations allow. This link is worth the read to better understand the fine line that can be walked.

Resource: Berkeley Wellness - Supplement Claims: What's Allowed

11/23/18 15:55 EST (Drew/Nerds)
Nick Wing from Huffington Post received the warrants from Ohio Dept of Agriculture. They are for adulterated dietary ingredients. The claim is that no kratom is legal to be sold as no one is following the FDA regulation on dietary ingredients, cGMP/NDIN/etc, and as all kratom is a dietary ingredient when sold directly to consumers in the US in bulk raw form they are saying they have the right to have it all embargoed for sale. It sounds very likely that there will be many more raids coming now.

For now possession isnt illegal as Ohio hasnt changed the law but it appears sale inside the state on any kratom product that isnt compliant with the laws, which none appears to be compliant with their view of the FDA regulation, is now basically over unless someone that is [cGMP] compliant successfully challenges this.

If you want to read the warrants go follow Nick Wing on Twitter so you can stay updated on further issues with this next week.

• 11/23/18 14:27 EST Nick Wing twitter update:
  • @nickpwing Quick update on the kratom situation in Ohio: State Department of Agriculture confirms there’s been at least one raid, says there are at least 10 stores in Central Ohio that they suspect are selling kratom in an "adulterated form." Not all have been visited.

---

The Illinois "Kratom Related Death"

11/19/18: First Kratom-related death reported in Peoria

• By: Kevin Schwaller
  Author's email address: [email protected]
  Author's twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/kevschwa/media?lang=en

Benzos were also found in his system. The article originally claimed the man "overdosed on kratom" and that kratom causes respiratory depression. Emails were sent and the author edited his article (Reddit Post from Holl0wayTape). Understandably, this is an emotionally charged issue for many and some have been letting their fear over-ride their manners so if you email please keep that in mind. The author said that a few emails were less than respectful.

11/20/18: Coroner: "Huge" Levels Of Kratom In Blood Indicate Cause Of Overdose Death

• Email: [email protected]
  Author: "Mdowling"

Last I saw this article, it had no mentioned any of the benzos found (Reddit post from Holl0wayTape). I haven't looked at it yet today.

• 11/22/18 Coroner Harwood sent thekevlardonair a message on the Facebook when questioned about calling the death a "kratom overdose. A Message On Facebook When Called Him Out For Going To The Media Regarding A Kratom 'Overdose': "Good day. I can honestly say I never imagined the controversy over the Kratom. I have friends that use Kratom and it has been very helpful for them for a variety of reasons. I am not in cahoots with the FDA or a drug company, and the comments on social media are absurd. I am a simple coroner, who happens to be a Christian man, registered nurse and a Democrat. Anyway, the reason I am reaching out, not for your lack of respect, but to give you the same information I received from our forensic lab. The mitragynine level in this 39 year old was 2300 nanograms per milliliter (ng/ml). NMS, the lab we use, published a reference range with fatalities of levels 600 ng/ml or higher. The benzo (which was clonazapam) was actually at a therapeutic level in his system; the third medication in his system was elavil, which was also a therapeutic range. Our forensic pathologist listed the cause of death from the mitragynine and benzo intoxication. I have no stake In this whatsoever. I don’t care what people use, I just want them to be aware and to be safe. I know Kratom has helped people get their life back, I get it. I am supportive. In fact , I am a staunch advocate for harm reduction and medically assisted treatment options. I hope you understand my sincerity; I always appreciate the dialogue.
  Respectively, Coroner Harwood"

---

Backtracking one more issue:
The coroner in Illinois referenced a "reference range with fatalities."

11/21/18 Inverse.com article: Scientists Identify the Lethal Dose of Kratom's Active Ingredients

• "Whereas the mice injected with heroin died from an average dose of 23.7 milligrams per kilogram of body weight (mg/kgbw), the mice injected with mitragynine died from 27.8 mg/kgbw, and those injected with 7-hydroxymitragynine died from 24.7 mg/kgbw. The researchers found 547.7 mg/kgbw to be the average lethal dose of mitragynine when it was taken orally. None of the mice died from oral doses of 7-hydroxymitragynine, but the mice given large oral doses of 7-hydroxymitragynine experienced seizures and depressed breathing." ([url=tps://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comments/9zb4r2 ... of_kratom/]Reddit post from Board_Fish[/url])

They were using lab extracted mitra and 7-ohm. I have seen estimates is that 7-ohm is <2% of total kratom alkaloids and mitra is <65% of total kratom alkaloids. And that's total kratom alkaloids after extracting from the plant matter. I am not sure what percentage of raw leaf powder is alkaloids vs plant matter. Armchair mathemagics put the estimate at 600 grams of plain leaf in one sitting for a 1oo kilo person (220 pounds).

[beathappening]

Thanks for this info. I imagine r/kratom is a shitshow right about now. Cue more panic buying.

[MetalMamaRocks]

Thanks for this info. I imagine r/kratom is a shitshow right about now. Cue more panic buying.

It's a scary situation. You have a lot of the vendors unable to receive stock, and now this in Ohio. I remain optimistic, but damn!!

[herbalhippie]

Oh man

Thanks for posting this info, db!

[BlendsAreMyFriends]

From the article (from the paper) "When researchers injected these chemicals into mice intravenously, they were lethal at around the same dosage as heroin."

I don't think I've ever heard of anybody eating heroin but everybody extracts and mainlines kratom right? I'd like to know who funded that study. If anybody with a brain approved spending money on the methodology in the study, I believe I can infer their motive.

I wonder how caffeine would fare in a similar scenario!

[beathappening]

This is why reviews of products like kratom are incredibly dangerous.

Don't do reviews on store/vendor websites or social media that in any way even infer Kratom is a treatment/cure for whatever ails you, it may be cause for enforcement. If you are a vendor/importer of kratom maybe rethink allowing reviews at all if you arent going to police what's being posted hourly.

What does that mean for MM? If that applies here, that would make many of the reviews posted incriminating. We see a lot of reviews with similar claims, especially for pain relief and mood issues.

[WotAnAtti2d]

Thanks for this info. I imagine r/kratom is a shitshow right about now. Cue more panic buying.

Exactly, so come over here and make this a shitshow, too.

[herbalhippie]

It's good info to know, I appreciate the post.

[whiffypants]

What does that mean for MM? If that applies here, that would make many of the reviews posted incriminating. We see a lot of reviews with similar claims, especially for pain relief and mood issues.

That is an excellent question, Beat, and what I have been wondering myself.

Under normal circumstances, one person cannot be held legally responsible for what someone else does. In other words, if I am a vendor and I say nothing about kratom's medicinal qualities, claim nothing, and label all my stuff "not for human consumption" -- yet others DO make those claims about my product -- then as long as I'm not aiding those claims in any way I would be legally safe. But that's under normal circumstances, and this is anything but.

First, in this country, departments of health and public safety often have expanded legal rights in specific, limited, and usually emergent circumstances, and for good reason. But it sounds like the powers that be in Ohio are taking this Illinois death and using it as justification to treat kratom as a public health risk, and thus are using emergency powers to raid and seize kratom.

Second, the way they're proving at least some of these vendors are in violation of federal labeling law is via the vendor's own social media involvement with their product.

But here at the DoubleM, none of us four are vendors, nor do we receive any money from any vendor to host and run this board, so that alone pretty much indemnifies vendors mentioned here from being held responsible for what is said about them and/or their product on this board by others. And we generally have nothing to do with headshop or storefront kratom anyway, which is what law enforcement is specifically targeting right now in Ohio (and what they were going after in South Carolina last week). Nor do I know of any vendor from Ohio that has an account here or has posted here, so in terms of the immediate situation I know of no way we or anything on this board could be used to help a case against an Ohio vendor.

Beyond that, I honestly don't know. But you can bet we're keeping a sharp eye on this. Even if we're not legally at risk ourselves, we don't want to do anything to jeopardize our vendors, even inadvertently.

Thanks, Bubbles, for letting us know what's going on with this. Much appreciated!!!

[heme2016]

From the article (from the paper) "When researchers injected these chemicals into mice intravenously, they were lethal at around the same dosage as heroin."

I don't think I've ever heard of anybody eating heroin but everybody extracts and mainlines kratom right? I'd like to know who funded that study. If anybody with a brain approved spending money on the methodology in the study, I believe I can infer their motive.

I wonder how caffeine would fare in a similar scenario!

"Using data from studies that are reproducible and reliable, the most accurate estimate of the acute LD50 of caffeine administered orally in male albino rats is hereby reported to be 367/mg/kg."
from "Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology Volume 80, October 2016, Pages 274-276"

Compare to the recent study where researchers found the average oral lethal dose of mitragynine in mice was 547.7 mg/kg.

So, if there is no major difference due to species effects (rats vs. mice), mitragynine appears to be slightly less toxic than caffeine when taken orally.

[WotAnAtti2d]

Whiffy, I don't know if I would go around trying to make justifiable legal claims for any vendors here. It's not like any enforcement agencies are following any rules themselves. Last time I looked, kratom was legal in Ohio. There have been no mentions that I have seen otherwise. Yet, there are LEO's, raiding shops. It seems to me as if law enforcement makes up their own rules as they go along.

I take responsibility for myself and whatever I post here. That's how anyone else that does the same should think. To state opinions one way or the other, is misleading, imo. People could misconstrue an opinion as a green light to be able to post sales here and be safe about it. Anyone that posts sales here should go under the assumption that it is THEIR risk and not to believe anything else, otherwise. /shrug

[whiffypants]

Whiffy, I don't know if I would go around trying to make justifiable legal claims for any vendors here.

Good thing I wasn't, then. I'm not an attorney, it's pretty obvious that what I write is my personal opinion -- if it wasn't before it is now -- and there it is. God help the vendor who relies on my comment in place of actual legal advice.

We already have rules in place for vendors, and one of those is that while people who want to sell may post their promotional materials in the Vendor area, the board cannot and will not be used for direct sales. We also do not allow trades.

Believe it or not, we actually have a pretty good handle on the legalities of running this board, and our risks get discussed fairly regularly.

To state opinions one way or the other, is misleading, imo.

And here you are doing exactly that. Welcome to the conversation, glad you could join us.

[BlendsAreMyFriends]

Unlike cut and dried laws against say premeditated murder or armed robbery the laws and regulations around kratom are seriously gray area. Any court decision or new memo from FDA/DEA or whoever can drastically change the legal landscape. Even high priced legal advice may vary in value and validity from one day to the next.

While this may make some people cautious, it can also encourage scoundrels who take what they can get now and tomorrow be damned.

That's why places to discuss vendors openly is so valuable in helping us find reputable, "good people" vendors so we can support them and avoid the scammers and those who cut corners with the law and our health.

Unfortunately mistakes happen and preventing an inadvertent error from having a vendor be labled as a scam artist is also important.

So thanks to everyone who monitors and contributes their experience to these threads. We are our own consumer protection and don't need or want the gov't. to get involved with onerous and costly regulations and requirements that do nothing but favor those who can afford to buy political influence from their obscene profits.

Case in point my therapist asked if I would be willing to try medical marijuana for my pain. When I looked into it I found out it would cost me less to just buy it off the street. And compared to kratom it would put me in dire financial straits either way.

We're from the government and we're here to help you.

Run, save yourself.

[whiffypants]

We're from the government and we're here to help you.

Run, save yourself.

[WotAnAtti2d]

And here you are doing exactly that. Welcome to the conversation, glad you could join us.

I was trying to defend your stance, as people tend to take things the wrong way.

[whiffypants]

Okay, Wot. Thank you.