FDA Head Wants New Regulations for Kratom and CBD — Pain News Network

[acct55]

Hey all, I just read this:

https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories ... KBmes9sWi0

While this should come as no surprise to anyone, I think it's very important for all of us to stay aware of attempts to ban or limit access to kratom.

I do not believe the FDA will ever stop. Track this and do everything we can to push back.

[mivanqua]

https://youtu.be/yURRmWtbTbo


Don't Stop Till You Get Enough (Bullets)

I am the most non-violent person on earth, but I only see one way out of this shit. They just WON'T stop it.

They got ALL OF THAT NO STRINGS ATTACHED LIABILITY FREE MONEY FROM THE VAX AND THEY STILL NEED MORE. If you ever wondered why stuff is set up the way it is (ie lose your house over medical bills) now you know. Pharma sees America as their playground and all of the crusty senators just take a handout and look/vote the other way. I am genuinely horrified about the future of.all of this "life" stuff.

[Kelleytoons]

I said this before in relation to another's post of saying we didn't need to worry - OF COURSE we need to worry. Big Pharma has all the $$$ and power (proven by getting billions for jabs that not only don't work, but actively kill people). They can and will do anything they want and if they want Kratom gone... it's gone.

We must need to keep up the fight in every way possible. (And, yes, I would still stockpile in the case we lose. As we very well may).

[BallzDeep9]

I do not believe the FDA will ever stop. Track this and do everything we can to push back.

Thanks for posting. The FDA does NOT have any Legal authority to "Ban" anything... Full Stop.

FDA regulates Dietary Supplements. Kratom has NOT been "approved" by FDA as a supplement, so - easy answer: . Don't SELL kratom as a Supplement - (and don't sell CBD as a Supplement, either!) - These products, are, and should be, sold as Not For Human Consumption. NFHC.

The AKA vendors in Retail stores, are selling kratom AS a Supplement, WITH a "Supplement Facts" Label. That clearly violates FDA regulations.

Good on Rep. Mark Pocan (D, Wisconsin) for speaking UP & challenging FDA - Rep. Pocan IS our leader now, in Congress.

[mivanqua]

Pocan was the co-author of the first letter back in the Rosenberg days, right?

What's a supplement REALLY?

[kratomwriter]

I do not believe the FDA will ever stop. Track this and do everything we can to push back.

Thanks for posting. The FDA does NOT have any Legal authority to "Ban" anything... Full Stop.

FDA regulates Dietary Supplements. Kratom has NOT been "approved" by FDA as a supplement, so - easy answer: . Don't SELL kratom as a Supplement - (and don't sell CBD as a Supplement, either!) - These products, are, and should be, sold as Not For Human Consumption. NFHC.

The AKA vendors in Retail stores, are selling kratom AS a Supplement, WITH a "Supplement Facts" Label. That clearly violates FDA regulations.

Good on Rep. Mark Pocan (D, Wisconsin) for speaking UP & challenging FDA - Rep. Pocan IS our leader now, in Congress.

It is also illegal to sell kratom as "Not for Human Consumption" (NFHC) in the US. It can be sold as food without structure-function claims. I know we already discussed this lengthily, but it's important for vendors out there to see if they should stumble on this. This is why Top Tree Herbs is selling kratom tea bags. Alcohol is a drug, but the social context behind it makes it a food. It is REALLY IMPORTANT to regulate kratom as either a FOOD or a SUPPLEMENT as soon as possible. Here is why.

The FDA can absolutely ban kratom, and it may be planning to. Have you seen its latest legislative draft that includes a mandatory dietary supplement listing provision? This is bad news for any un-approved herb or NDI. Even if sold as NFHC or as a food, the FDA can wait to approve kratom until a pharmaceutical company has conducted a clinical trial and produced a drug.

Once the FDA approves a pharmaceutical drug with mitragynine or other alkaloids, the drug exclusionary act can be applied so that kratom will NEVER be allowed to be sold as a supplement or anything else other than a drug, and Big Pharma will have a monopoly on it. That is how kratom will effectively be banned outside of prescription medicine—and it will likely be a specialized laboratory version absent of many of the alkaloids we enjoy.

NAC has been sold as a supplement for over 30 years. This April, the FDA has decided that NAC cannot be a supplement because it was approved as a drug back in 1963. If this precedent sticks, the FDA is opening the doors to Big Pharma to research herbs and get a drug approved to take it off the food and supplement market entirely.

I repeat, it is REALLY IMPORTANT to regulate kratom as either a FOOD or a SUPPLEMENT as soon as possible. Selling it NFHC does nothing from an activist's perspective.

[kratomwriter]

Anyone here can say what they want about the American Kratom Association, but at least the AKA watches the FDA's actions like a hawk, and they want to keep kratom legal like it is, just regulated. Half of the people against the AKA are not aware of the FDA's latest legal moves or what they entail. They do not understand federal regulation laws.

No, I do not like the AKA either, but I know that we need them to keep kratom legal. If you like your vendors and want to keep the kratom industry like it is right now, not handing your money over to Big Pharma, it's absolutely worth it to follow the AKA's lead.

Yes, the AKA's requirements for the KCPA and vendor approval are trickier for small vendors, but they are nothing compared to the costs of applying for an NDI (which costs $160,000 on average just to get the paperwork submitted in the right format). Ideally, we would want the KCPA to be as fair, safe, and affordable as possible for kratom vendors.

However, the most important thing to do right now is to protect against the FDA's latest moves to gain power, which is to push for the KCPA and do whatever is required. For a vendor to go against the KCPA because they can't afford to register/follow GMP is selfish and short-sighted. The Americans who rely on kratom's availability and affordability are far more important than the handful of small kratom vendors who could go out of business if the KCPA were enacted in their state.

Sorry, but things are not looking good as far as the FDA's ambitions are reaching this year. CBD might even be pulled from the supplements market in the next few years, the way things are going. We can't afford to spend all of the time in the world trying to perfect the KCPA. Those changes can come later. We need to try to regulate kratom to protect its legality before it's too late.

[acct55]

I do not believe the FDA will ever stop. Track this and do everything we can to push back.

Thanks for posting. The FDA does NOT have any Legal authority to "Ban" anything... Full Stop.

FDA regulates Dietary Supplements. Kratom has NOT been "approved" by FDA as a supplement, so - easy answer: . Don't SELL kratom as a Supplement - (and don't sell CBD as a Supplement, either!) - These products, are, and should be, sold as Not For Human Consumption. NFHC.

The AKA vendors in Retail stores, are selling kratom AS a Supplement, WITH a "Supplement Facts" Label. That clearly violates FDA regulations.

Good on Rep. Mark Pocan (D, Wisconsin) for speaking UP & challenging FDA - Rep. Pocan IS our leader now, in Congress.

It is also illegal to sell kratom as "Not for Human Consumption" (NFHC) in the US. It can be sold as food without structure-function claims. I know we already discussed this lengthily, but it's important for vendors out there to see if they should stumble on this. This is why Top Tree Herbs is selling kratom tea bags. Alcohol is a drug, but the social context behind it makes it a food. It is REALLY IMPORTANT to regulate kratom as either a FOOD or a SUPPLEMENT as soon as possible. Here is why.

The FDA can absolutely ban kratom, and it may be planning to. Have you seen its latest legislative draft that includes a mandatory dietary supplement listing provision? This is bad news for any un-approved herb or NDI. Even if sold as NFHC or as a food, the FDA can wait to approve kratom until a pharmaceutical company has conducted a clinical trial and produced a drug.

Once the FDA approves a pharmaceutical drug with mitragynine or other alkaloids, the drug exclusionary act can be applied so that kratom will NEVER be allowed to be sold as a supplement or anything else other than a drug, and Big Pharma will have a monopoly on it. That is how kratom will effectively be banned outside of prescription medicine—and it will likely be a specialized laboratory version absent of many of the alkaloids we enjoy.

NAC has been sold as a supplement for over 30 years. This April, the FDA has decided that NAC cannot be a supplement because it was approved as a drug back in 1963. If this precedent sticks, the FDA is opening the doors to Big Pharma to research herbs and get a drug approved to take it off the food and supplement market entirely.

I repeat, it is REALLY IMPORTANT to regulate kratom as either a FOOD or a SUPPLEMENT as soon as possible. Selling it NFHC does nothing from an activist's perspective.

Excellent point about the drug exclusionary act. I am not sure how quickly a pharma company could/would produce a mitragynine/other alk-based drug, but I am aware of at least one company working on one (I cannot remember the name right now). Could you share a link about the drug exclusionary act? I haven't found anything myself.

I'm also curious what other strategies the FDA could use. Any thoughts?

Lastly, what can we do? I know you say we need to regulate kratom as either a food or supplement ASAP, but how can we help achieve that? And what kind of protections does that afford kratom?

[BallzDeep9]

It is also illegal to sell kratom as "Not for Human Consumption" (NFHC) in the US. It can be sold as food without structure-function claims. I know we already discussed this lengthily, but it's important for vendors out there to see if they should stumble on this. This is why Top Tree Herbs is selling kratom tea bags. Alcohol is a drug, but the social context behind it makes it a food. It is REALLY IMPORTANT to regulate kratom as either a FOOD or a SUPPLEMENT as soon as possible. Here is why.

The FDA can absolutely ban kratom, and it may be planning to.

Wrong - Wrong - and Wrong... You have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. Tea Bags ? are a scam.

ALL of the Small Batch vendors here on MM - and nearly ALL of 20 -40 vendors on this Vendor List, sell NFHC - Not For Human Consumption. Please read the "Terms" on each Website.

NFHC has been, and IS still, the safest way to sell Kratom. Vendors have been told that, directly, by local FDA Rep's doing inspections!!

NOT 1 Single Online Vendor has ever been busted due to violations of selling NFHC - but MANY vendors have been busted, raided, and shut down for various violations of Retail = selling Caps as Dietary Supplements, et cetera. Did you MISS the large raid in Florida just a YEAR ago ?? Good Grief - Have you been living under a rock ?? Here's ONE example - FDA Seizes 37 Tons of Kratom in Florida - kratom powder and capsules labeled as “herbal supplements” https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories ... in-florida

The FDA - has NO power to enact ANY "Federal Ban" on Kratom... That would have to be done by Congress, and the D.E.A.

Please STOP the Fear Mongering... you're only hurting people by doing that! KISS the ass of AKA all you want, Support your AKA Retail head-shops, but please... Haven't we got ENOUGH mis-information about Kratom, already ?? Jesus Fuck! Kratom = The World of Bullshit. Getting impossible to plug the dike here the BS is leaking flooding out on EVERY Social Media.

[BallzDeep9]

I am not sure how quickly a pharma company could/would produce a mitragynine/other alk-based drug, but I am aware of at least one company working on one...

NO. The analogy is = Weed! They can't patent a Weed! . and "THC" made in a Drug Lab... just does not work the same, as smokin' Weed... It's basically the same principal with Kratom - Isolating Mitragynine in a Lab, or synthesizing (a real Drug), won't ever be the same as ... Full Spectrum Plant Extracts... Of course, "Big Pharma" might try, somehow, BUT their investment is limited - And, they've totally failed over what, 50+ YEARS now, to get a Legal Patent on herbal plant medicine. So, we have "Big Cannabis", and yes, we have "Big Kratom" the Republican/ Mormon Church based AKA Retail head-shop companies, selling their products for TEN times the going price Online.

The Solution, that AKA and FDA (2 Sides of the same Coin?) don't want to HEAR - is a Distributed Network of, many hundreds of "Small Batch" vendors importing 5- 20 kilos and also making Extracts, and selling Lab Made extracts, in small quantity. We DO have support in Congress, for progressive legislation to KEEP Kratom legal, and MAKE weed legal on the Federal Level.

Kratom, and Cannabis, are TOGETHER - on this, but right now it's hard to see Kratom EVER getting the "Big Money" like weed ??

[Kelleytoons]

Kratom, and Cannabis, are TOGETHER - on this, but right now it's hard to see Kratom EVER getting the "Big Money" like weed ??

Do you think that's because Kratom can't easily be grown/harvested here? Certainly not on any scale where it could be sold by any small group. Or is it because Kratom doesn't really give that "high" and thus folks aren't as supportive?

I often wonder why there is SO much money in Cannabis and yet Kratom has gone under the radar for many. I hadn't even heard of it until last year and I'm not exactly living under a rock. And yet, in so many ways, it seems to me to be so much better than weed (at least for my uses).

The good news for Cannabis users is that times are definitely changing - when I lived in Nevada possessing even less than an ounce was a felony. Now it's totally legal to grow (sigh - sometimes I wish I had never moved :>). Clearly the word has gotten out that weed is not a "gateway" drug the way it used to be positioned (because there was no case to be made for it to be deadly). If Kratom could get the same kind of support nationwide it would be wonderful.

[kratomwriter]

I am not sure how quickly a pharma company could/would produce a mitragynine/other alk-based drug, but I am aware of at least one company working on one...

NO. The analogy is = Weed! They can't patent a Weed! . and "THC" made in a Drug Lab... just does not work the same, as smokin' Weed...It's basically the same principal with Kratom - Isolating Mitragynine in a Lab, or synthesizing (a real Drug), won't ever be the same as ... Full Spectrum Plant Extracts...

So? It doesn't matter if nobody likes the extract as much. It doesn't matter if it can't replace good ol' kratom. It can mean that all of the kratom businesses currently selling it may be barred from the market, and the KCPA would go right out the window because kratom would be a drug.

Are you saying that we'd all be buying kratom illegally, like the days when weed was illegal?

Using weed as evidence for your rationale is a false equivalence. The history of kratom and weed in this country is very different, as is the FDA's treatment of the two industries. So far, the FDA actually has elected not to pursue drug exclusion for marijuana-derived products. If it had the ability to do so with kratom, it almost certainly would have already.

Furthermore, the latest legislative drafts this year would make it easier to quickly get a kratom-derived drug studied and approved. Seeing as the FDA has tried to urge two separate departments (DEA and HHS) to ban kratom on a federal level, you can't tell me that they wouldn't jump at the opportunity to use drug exclusion to ban kratom from the market themselves.

Of course, "Big Pharma" might try, somehow, BUT their investment is limited - And, they've totally failed over what, 50+ YEARS now, to get a Legal Patent on herbal plant medicine.

There are companies right now trying to study kratom's potential as a drug. It doesn't have to be Big Pharma, it can even be a kratom-friendly, research-based startup like this one :

"Today, ATAI Life Sciences...announced they’ve acquired Kures in their latest attempt to turn an already widely used substance into an FDA-approved drug. The plan is to develop a compound derived from kratom first as a treatment for acute pain, then as a treatment for opioid abuse disorder and, further down the road, possibly as an anti-depressant."

It doesn't have to be an evil Big Pharma giant. It can be a small biotech who gets a kratom derivative approved as a drug. Does ATAI Life Sciences want to get kratom off the market? Highly unlikely; I mean they're teamed up with McCurdy. However, the FDA can then ban kratom from all other markets based on its drug exclusion principle, which it just had the pleasure of excersizing on NAC, a harmless supplement that nobody looks twice at. They've paved the way.

Oh, and by the way, even if the FDA never approves this company's kratom-derived drug, all it would have to do is research kratom as a drug, which again, the latest FDA draft would make EASIER to do. So the past cannot be used to justify your rationale.

So, we have "Big Cannabis", and yes, we have "Big Kratom" the Republican/ Mormon Church based AKA Retail head-shop companies, selling their products for TEN times the going price Online.

Please, tell me who the "Big Kratom" companies are. You seem to always ignore me when I bring this up. Mitragaia? Golden Monk? Oasis Kratom? Most of these "Big Kratom" guys started with next to nothing. They have small teams, man. They give back to their communities and fight to keep kratom legal, too. Not all of them, for sure, but to lump all AKA-certified vendors into one "Big Kratom" category is ignorant and unfair.

C'mon, if you started out "small batch" and had the opportunity to grow and profit enough to take care of your family, would you not do it? This is not an issue with the kratom market—this is an issue with capitalism itself. It's competition, which is a problem in tons of industries. Where's your rally against Amazon, or chain restaurants? The gov't isn't protecting or enforcing Distributed Networks anywhere else, why would they ever take the time to do this with kratom, especially when the bigger and more profitable companies, the more money back to the state?

Man, I like your plan better, pal. I like your optimism better. I want things to work out that way, but I can't just sit here, banking on it when it is far from guaranteed.

[kratomwriter]

Wrong - Wrong - and Wrong... You have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. Tea Bags ? are a scam.

Are you kidding me? Do you call yourself a kratom activist at all? Maybe you should ask questions or inform yourself before you jump to conclusions and judgments.

I seriously respect you man, and I thought our interactions would go differently. This statement is incredibly ignorant. Do you know anything about Top Tree herbs? The two co-founders went to Columbia, where they took Hamilton Morris's course; one of them actually is a producer for Hamilton's Pharmacopeia.

Top Tree herbs have their own greenhouse and are one of the only companies growing kratom domestically and researching alkaloids. They have helped supply kratom for researchers McCurdy and Grundmann. And, what's more, the alkaloids from their domestically grown kratom are superior in concentration to anything seen from Indonesia. Would you call them Big Kratom because they lab-test and agree with the KCPA? They don't even pocket any money from their sales; everything they earn goes into allowing them to function.

I mean, what are your favorite vendors doing compared to Top Tree Herbs, who founded their company because they are passionate about keeping kratom legal and accessible, not for the money. They scrounged by and saved up to make this happen. All of their money goes into keeping it operating; this is not their profession.

You might not like tea bags, sure, but their company could possibly even save the future of the kratom industry. Top Tree Herbs itself could literally help get kratom legalized as a food, which would protect the kratom vendors around today, including small-batch vendors—which Top Tree herbs is as small-batch as they come— from Big Pharma. They have like, no money or recognition but they deserve it probably more than any other vendor there is.

I shouldn't have to explain this, but no, I'm not shilling, and I'm not kissing their ass. I'm on this forum because I care about the kratom community, fighting misinformation, and keeping kratom legal. I want to keep the market fair for small businesses; I do not want to see a "Big Kratom" world. But our enemy is not the AKA-vendors. God damn, we need to all be in this together. Are you really all about "small batch vendor" camaraderie, or are you just perpetuating the cutthroat competition that hurts us all? Do you sell your own kratom or something? Buy kratom where you like, man. But why are you attacking businesses that are actually trying to make a difference? Big Kratom will most likely only happen if it gets approved as a drug, that's all. Why are you telling me not to fight against that happening?

I'm lost as to why you continue to try to speak to me as if you are some sort of "Kratom Expert," and yet avoid addressing my points with equal quality evidence of your own. You've literally shown that you have opinions on things you don't know anything about.

And as for your words on "Not For Human Consumption," we have a whole Not For Human Consumption thread in which I addressed everything you've mentioned. You still haven't addressed my statements, and I've already run in enough circles for today.

[add to descartes]

one thing I have noticed about the AKA: people don't want it to exist....until a state/federal legislature is about to ban kratom. then people just expect them to save the day.

I'd prefer if things could somehow stay as they are now, but it doesn't seem likely. at some point, it's going to either be: protect it, or let it get banned. I'm not pro- or anti-aka (call me a shill if you want, I'm just making an observation) but i do recognize that they have saved kratom's ass many times, and from the sounds of it, it's not easy.

it's easy to be anti-aka while also benefiting from the work they do to keep it legal, but at some point, we will not be able to have it both ways anymore.

[BallzDeep9]

one thing I have noticed about the AKA: people don't want it to exist....until a state/ federal legislature is about to ban kratom. then people just expect them to save the day.

Well that depends. How many REAL "about to ban kratom" incidents have happened ? A few. A few notable Red States. There has been NO, that's Zero, Federal talk of any Ban since 2016 - Way before the current AKA were in power.

The AKA has totally changed since 2016. The people are ALL different. Mac Haddow's an amazing guy, and he's done an excellent job yes, and he's very well paid, I understand, around 750K per year ? And Mr. Salmon, and Candland, who left and now others... They all draw very nice fat salaries. Look I'm not here to diss AKA, I support them, where they are needed, State by State, and in certain cases... But. Every single State, and every single KCPA - is different.

The Oregon KCPA from two years ago, was horrible... It would have set-up ONE big AKA contributor, 1 "Big Kratom" company, as a monopoly in that State, and basically given full Legal control over all kratom SOLD in that state, And the power to Sue Vendors in Court, and the Oregon State Police power to kick down doors and seize kratom. AKA was pushing that, 2 years ago.

Does THAT sound good for Consumers ? . No. So Everyone I know out there, was totally against AKA's corrupt Republican attempt at KCPA back then. Well... 2 Years passed. Different politicians. The one dirty Republican politician, Quit and left the state - A New KCPA was written, and it's totally different! and... this one DID get signed by the Governor and there's no Monopoly and none of the KCPA bullshit from 2019. Fine.

I have no idea who does The Kratom Herald website, but they've had some GOOD articles. None recently. But here's one - The KCPA Is Bad For Kratom Consumers, Since It Is Likely That Kratom Prices Will Skyrocket & Kratom Product Variety And Quality Will Plummet Due To The Kratom Free-Market Economy Being Replaced By A Cartel / Monopoly -- LINK -- https://kratomherald.com/the-kcpa-is-ba ... ed-by-a-c/

[BallzDeep9]

I'm lost as to why you continue to try to speak to me as if you are some sort of "Kratom Expert," and yet avoid addressing my points with equal quality evidence of your own. You've literally shown that you have opinions on things you don't know anything about.

And as for your words on "Not For Human Consumption," we have a whole Not For Human Consumption thread in which I addressed everything you've mentioned. You still haven't addressed my statements, and I've already run in enough circles for today.

Well I guess, because there's so MUCH mis-information being tossed around, and you're wrong about so MANY things and then, . write long drawn-out posts and I just... Don't have time for a thoughtful long drawn-out Response. Sorry. Especially since this Forum is mainly about "strains" from pop-up vendors... Look around. Very few people join these conversations here.

Tea Bags ? are just a DUMB idea for Kratom - I brew Tea, I've got a couple years of really hardcore Tea making experience. And you've got to simmer, a LARGE amount of leaf, for a long time - Per gram to collect an equivalent amount of Mitragynine - others with experience, agree. Plus - use Acid and High Pressure (Aeropress) to further optimize any water based extraction of alkaloids... Heat & Time+ Acid+ pressure. So Tea Bags ? obviously just another, either Bad Idea (fools who didn't know much about Kratom), or... an outright SCAM, something that "sounds good" but does not, and cannot, work.

I'm Sorry - if this Company are personal friends of yours? Gosh. Sounds like some "academics" who had these BIG ideas... But! Didn't do any STUDY of actual Kratom "As we Know It" and very important, Kratom Consumers. It's a Product Of Indonesia - Kratom is NOT Weed. Quality kratom does not grow native here in USA. Yes, some people have invested their $ in that. NO, none of them are producing any Quality leaf... Maybe some day ? Who knows. Sorry about their investment.

Let's face it. Some people DO have money to throw around. Some people have Trust Funds, or whatever... ?? They can HOST a Webinar ? maybe pay money to Hamilton Morris, or maybe fly around the country and attend the big Champs Trade Show, for all the "Big Kratom" and "Big Cannabis" companies, with their long lists of 1000 Gas Stations all across America who sell their over-priced CRAP.... Profiteers. https://champstradeshows.com/

Profiteers, are the Retail Side of the kratom business. It's people who sell, some very cheap products (Bulk Kratom) in fancy bags, for a LOT of money. You're paying for the fancy Bag & maybe getting a nice cartoon Hippo, lol... "Cool" products that really MOVE in those Retail head-shops... Novelty items like "Tea Bags" lol. AND, there's also a few serious, quality, Extract products which ARE good - But, sell for upto TEN times their value. That's your O.P.M.S. and others.

AKA serves mainly, those people. That's where the MONEY is... You seem to also, be into that SIDE of the kratom business ? Yes ? One more thought then I gotta go. Today in a Facebook group I was browsing - A discussion about Kratom could be/ should be/ like a Research Chemical ? Hmmm. Sold ONLY online - No retail stores, and sold ONLY - NFHC - Not For Human Consumption. Well I gotta say, that's possible. In Fact -the World Health Org, that controls legality of RC's, has given the Green Light to Kratom. NFHC. I mean... Do I need Kratom sold at Walmart ?? NO. I don't.

[Jking]

Yeah I would say top tree herbs is a waste of time, and go ahead agreeing with ballzdeep on this one that tea bags are a scam plus the rest of what he said is spot on I think. I hate the fda. They are a joke, and lie more than they tell the truth. I have trouble believing tree top herbs could be the difference between anything with kratom. Now this is my opinion. I don’t care enough to actually research this topic, nor write my usual long replies.

[BallzDeep9]

LOL!! and I told myself, it's getting too late to Reply here & with some long rant... and that's exactly what happened! . Look there are MANY important issues being discussed here. Pretty tough to cover 5 different issues in a few paragraphs, when 100 Lurkers could really care less, very few even participate. So, to RECAP:

• FDA sucks, and they have a history with Kratom, but no Federal authority to Ban herbs, only DEA and Congress.
• AKA is great, where needed - But their proposed "KCPA" bullshit, different in every state. Some are bad for Consumers!
• NFHC, Not For Human Consumption, is standard, safe, business practice used by the majority of Online Vendors.
• Retail "brands" at Head-shops, are AKA profiteers, A Mix of products sold at crazy prices. Mostly bad deals for Consumers.
• Domestic Kratom growing ? Not ready for Prime Time, it's full of scammers trying to recover their Investment.

I mean, EACH of those Topics could be discussed in a separate Thread, here, but seems like not enough people on MM want that ?

[kratomwriter]

I don’t care enough to actually research this topic, nor write my usual long replies.

This is exactly why you and Ballz agree with each other. If you're not familiar with the latest legislative draft, you have no point in commenting here, as the core of my argument is based on evidence that you both refuse to read or look into. What is your evidence to agree with BallzDeep9? "He just sounds right?" "The FDA just seems like it won't get anything done?" "It just seems like no one will make a kratom-derived drug soon?"

FDA approval for MDMA could come out in as little as three years. Why the hell do you think that pharma will leave kratom alone when it is already being researched as a drug? My argument is based on facts, legislation, and examples. BallzDeep's argument is based on moral-emotional language, strawman fallacies, a priori arguments, ad hominem statements, arguments from ignorance, bandwagon sentiments, and a slew of other fallacies that would impress even the most charismatic politician. I'm actually embarrassed to point all of this out because he's just going to laugh and deny it without understanding that his own words prove my point themselves.

This is not even an argument. You're basically saying, "I don't know what your point is, and I will not look at your evidence, but without doing any research for myself, I agree with BallzDeep9, who also hasn't done any research."

If you do not care to find out what's going on whatsoever, that's fine. But I'm not doing this to win an argument (which would be impossible anyway, given that it's not even an argument), I'm putting this information out there because some people do care. The most ironic thing is that Ballzdeep9 keeps saying that I know nothing, despite admitting he hasn't and isn't going to read any of the things I've shared.

[kratomwriter]

one thing I have noticed about the AKA: people don't want it to exist....until a state/federal legislature is about to ban kratom. then people just expect them to save the day.

I'd prefer if things could somehow stay as they are now, but it doesn't seem likely. at some point, it's going to either be: protect it, or let it get banned. I'm not pro- or anti-aka (call me a shill if you want, I'm just making an observation) but i do recognize that they have saved kratom's ass many times, and from the sounds of it, it's not easy.

it's easy to be anti-aka while also benefiting from the work they do to keep it legal, but at some point, we will not be able to have it both ways anymore.

Thanks for bringing some sanity to this table. Well, I mean, your username references a philosopher, so it's only fitting that you can recognize logic. You're right; things won't stay the same if everyone does nothing, as some people here seem to think is best. If we don't move, somebody will, and it will mean the end of the kratom market as we know it.

All the FDA has to do is research kratom as a drug and they can ban everyone but Big Pharma from selling it. And the latest legislation I'm referring to, which apparently no one cares enough to read (not referring to you), will make it many times easier to speed up this process and get kratom off the market for good.

[add to descartes]

someone said that most lurkers won't care about this topic...well that's fine, they can check out another thread. whether or not this is mainly a "strains" forum, it's still a general kratom discussion board. I like reading topics like this, with some back and forth, even if it is a little argumentative. that's kinda the point.

I think we should be discussing these issues more openly. different people have very different ideas. I'm still not sure where I land on some issues, that's why I like reading forums, even if I don't agree with what someone is saying (or think they're objectively wrong), it's still valuable to know what people think, especially when topics of real substance (no offense, strains) don't come up often.

so please let's not go by what is perceived as "what mm users want." it doesn't have to be all strain recommendations all the time. there's room for these discussions too. let's not discourage an open exchange of ideas.

[Sanbutsushin]

Everyone here cares about this leaf or we wouldn't be here.

Every other month there's another person saying kratom is going to be banned forever and the sky is falling etc etc. Several times it's caused people to go on full panic-buying shopping sprees, and then ultimately nothing ended up happening, so if you see longtime users rolling their eyes at those kinds of claims, that's probably why.

Reiterating again that I do care about this, and that no one would be on this board if they didn't give a shit. There are loads of users here who use kratom for chronic pain, myself included, and anyone who was able to regain some function and improve their quality of life would be absolutely devastated if they lost access to it. If anyone has concrete ideas about what normal people can possibly do in order to keep the FDA's grubby little hands off kratom, I'm all ears.

That said, what can we do, realistically? All we can do is write testimonials like when the WHO (iirc) was asking for them. We can make phonecalls and write letters. And at the end of the day, if there exists an organization with the power to ban kratom, and they decide they want to, they're going to. I absolutely don't want to see that happen, and neither does anyone who uses kratom, but it's not like we can call up the FDA and demand they look the other way and have them go "oh gee, well, okay I guess we will!" No one here has the money or influence to dictate what the FDA does or doesn't do.

[mivanqua]

I just wanted to say that I don't care about this topic.

I'll be back later to say what I was going to say, I'm at work, but I want to comment.

I do want to say that division is their whole objective. Everyone agrees on the major topics from what I can tell. Nothing wrong with a little healthy paranoia. We all have way too much kratom, that's just part of it. Hug it out, bitches, we need to be a united front. Kratom is one of few substances that can change your life for the better. Hard to think of any right off the top of my head.

[kratomwriter]

Everyone here cares about this leaf or we wouldn't be here.

Every other month there's another person saying kratom is going to be banned forever and the sky is falling etc etc. Several times it's caused people to go on full panic-buying shopping sprees, and then ultimately nothing ended up happening, so if you see longtime users rolling their eyes at those kinds of claims, that's probably why.

I understand that people do unnecessarily incite fear and act like kratom will be banned. I disagree with fear-mongering of any variety, and I do not like the AKA's approach in emails. However, as a practically-oriented and evidence-based person, I don't want others to ruin it by making people not care equally about new developments for which they can help fight.

If people don't care to follow the news or make activist efforts, that's fine. Not everyone has the time, energy, or focus; we are an over-worked and underpaid society at large. Nevertheless, if people don't care or don't have the energy to act, they don't have to waste time responding. People like BallzDeep9 are looked up to and listened to as experts on the topic. For him to basically say "don't sweat it, nothing bad will happen" is completely ignorant and irresponsible. It's easier to not give a damn and to not read or act. People on the fence may see his message and take it as an excuse to sit back and do nothing.

I don't need him to fight for anything, and I'm not asking everyone to do so. If you don't want to, I do not care. Live your life. But why willingly downplay something that you don't even understand and make assumptions about my intentions? I'm just trying to help. After all, just because this Act wouldn't immediately ban kratom (or potentially even lead to its banning), it will certainly have other consequences that will affect others' health and wellbeing and could make life harder for small batch kratom vendors and supplements companies down the road, or be a major contributing factor to kratom eventually being monopolized by Big Pharma.

The future is uncertain; I'm not saying this will all happen—unlike those who illogically insist that it will never happen—but those who can act against it have no reason not to. It's not a good piece of legislation, no matter how you look at it. I don't see why it's worth dismissing as bullshit when it is a real likelihood.

There are loads of users here who use kratom for chronic pain, myself included, and anyone who was able to regain some function and improve their quality of life would be absolutely devastated if they lost access to it.

This. The community of people who rely on kratom to live life should be reason enough not to downplay anything. If worrisome legislation were always downplayed, kratom would be illegal in many more states. We cannot ultimately control the outcome, but our voices matter a whole lot. I mean, due to public outcry against the DEA's federal ban in 2016, the DEA reversed a federal ban for the first time in history.

This is why I don't understand all of the people who spit on new KCPA legislation. Hell no, it's not ideal, but if it keeps kratom legal in a state, it's selfish to rally against it for your own views/financial interests if you don't live there. Complaining about the KCPA and the AKA literally does nothing. Why not educate, petition, write to legislators, and try to get the community on board with passing a better version?

[kratomwriter]

If anyone has concrete ideas about what normal people can possibly do in order to keep the FDA's grubby little hands off kratom, I'm all ears.

As you said, sending our voices and raising awareness for others to speak out is our best bet. It is not guaranteed, but we have more control over this than many things our government does. Instead of spending the time to go on a rant and say that this will never happen, why not just ask how to help? Why not write somebody? What have you got to lose? Why ever discourage people from trying to help? No one is making anybody join in or care. It's one's own choice to care and act or not.

If you're looking to help in some way, fill out this and share it:
— Fill out and sign this form at Votervoice

[mivanqua]

There is nothing you can really do. I disagree with Ballz on that point. Its not if, but when sadly. If there was even one dollar to make,.pharma would be all over this already, but that makes no difference to them. It "kills people" I have no clue how anyone takes these scumbags seriously. Fuck them! They are easily found to be shady as fuck and according to Albert Bourla CEO of Pfucker, they "own the government" so the rules "don't apply to them." You mean like ALL the rules? If so, I certainly don't remember voting for that. That's kinda a "big" difference from what I thought a free country was. That's called fascism plain and simple.

[add to descartes]

There is nothing you can really do. I disagree with Ballz on that point. Its not if, but when sadly. If there was even one dollar to make,.pharma would be all over this already, but that makes no difference to them. It "kills people" I have no clue how anyone takes these scumbags seriously. Fuck them! They are easily found to be shady as fuck and according to Albert Bourla CEO of Pfucker, they "own the government" so the rules "don't apply to them." You mean like ALL the rules? If so, I certainly don't remember voting for that. That's kinda a "big" difference from what I thought a free country was. That's called fascism plain and simple.

there is certainly a pro-autocracy/pro-facist movement going on in our society. the people at the top are smart enough to not believe their own claims, but they have some agenda to push, for all sorts of political reasons. I have decided that some of them are evil. no hyperbole. you know that they don't believe a word of what they're saying, that it's all a performance (ahem...Cruz... McConnell) they know what they're pushing is wrong, fraudulent, whatever, but their job is to keep their donors happy, so they can stay in power.

remember pharma bro martin skreli? he intentionally inflated the price of a life saving drug, for seemingly no other reason than greed and being a troll. he's out of prison now btw. but yes there are straight up evil people, they exist

it's scary watching this movement towards fascism in slow motion.

[Sanbutsushin]

If anyone has concrete ideas about what normal people can possibly do in order to keep the FDA's grubby little hands off kratom, I'm all ears.

As you said, sending our voices and raising awareness for others to speak out is our best bet. It is not guaranteed, but we have more control over this than many things our government does. Instead of spending the time to go on a rant and say that this will never happen, why not just ask how to help? Why not write somebody? What have you got to lose? Why ever discourage people from trying to help? No one is making anybody join in or care. It's one's own choice to care and act or not.

If you're looking to help in some way, fill out this and share it:
— Fill out and sign this form at Votervoice

Thank you! I've filled it out. Alas I don't know anyone outside of DoubleM who would be invested in this fight, but I'll see if I can't drum up some interest in chronic pain groups at least. It's worth a shot.

[Adorable45Deplorable]

Of course they do.

[BallzDeep9]

If you're looking to help in some way, fill out this and share it:

You gotta be kidding -- NPA ?? Nobody should participate in anything from NPA - Fabricant, is a well known OPPONENT of kratom. Fabricant has in the past, advocated for kratom to be Banned... and you're say join HIS "fight" ?? I don't think so! - You're batting 100% here. On every single issue, you're Wrong! That's quite amazing. But... there IS tons of mis-information out there... I suggest wait for Mac Haddow, and Rep Mark Pocan's advice - Definitely NOT this guy and his NPA... they're anti-kratom.

Daniel Fabricant, Ph.D.
President and CEO
Natural Products Association

[mivanqua]

Fabricant, it's in the name. I can't.

[add to descartes]

I don't understand the hostility between these two, maybe some old drama?
what's the point in saying the other person is wrong, without presenting any evidence or sources. for the claim against fabricant, can you provide a link, or something? it's not common knowledge. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm still trying to figure this out, but it would be helpful to have some factual basis. if the NPA or fabricant has some history against kratom, where did you hear that from? and I'm asking this in good faith, not being snarky. there is too much bad faith arguing in our society today.. this seems like a pretty complicated and nuanced issue. a lot of speculation right now.

i agree with mivanqua, this shouldn't be something to fight about, we're all on the same side. I don't think anyone is being alarmist or claiming kratom is about to be banned in this thread. this is just something that we should be aware of and prepared for. I'm not as pessimistic as some, saying kratom being banned in some way is a foregone conclusion. it has gotten very dire before, much more so than now. in 2016, out of nowhere they said they were banning it in the next month. I don't think it's set in stone yet. but let's not minimize the risk. we can do that without scaring everyone in to a panic buying toilet paper covid style frenzy.

[whoisseananyway]

for the claim against fabricant, can you provide a link, or something? it's not common knowledge. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm still trying to figure this out, but it would be helpful to have some factual basis. if the NPA or fabricant has some history against kratom, where did you hear that from? and I'm asking this in good faith, not being snarky. there is too much bad faith arguing in our society today.. this seems like a pretty complicated and nuanced issue. a lot of speculation right now.

I don't have a link, but Fabricant's anti-kratom history is common knowledge in the Kratom community. Major opponent. You can check his old tweets, those are public record. A quick Google search will turn up everything you need.

[Kelleytoons]

To me this back and forth indicates that we are sometimes our worst enemy.

Can we ALL agree there are forces out there who want to make our favorite leaf impossible for us to get? (Or at least without paying $$$$ for and possibly having a doctor's prescription). Can we also agree we are ALL in this fight together and want it to remain as accessible as it is now? If we can at least agree upon those two things we need to at least stick together and try and fight those forces who oppose us.

Honestly, I completely disagree the FDA isn't out to get us. Doesn't matter their authority - when did you ever find a government agency that didn't exceed their authority? And it doesn't matter that the WHO decision helped. If Big Pharma wants us gone, we're history. Anyone who doesn't see that is very, very naïve. For the rest of it - yeah, we had better damn well be careful who we trust to help.

It's great if the state you are in is not opposed to Kratom but, honestly, that's not enough. Hell, a Presidential order (which doesn't need ANYTHING to back it up, just at the whim of the Executive) could ban Kratom tomorrow. So please let's not be complacent. If you don't want to fight at least don't hinder others who do. And if you do want to fight then get all the facts right (and Ballz - you help a LOT but I wish you'd be a little less aggressive - there are times when you act like you cannot under any circumstances tolerate anyone who disagrees with you. I doubt you mean to do that, but again, we're all in this together).

I'm a very old man so it's unlikely anything will really affect me (I suspect I have enough already to last my limited lifetime). But I'd sure hate to see any curtailing of this wonderful plant.

[Sanbutsushin]

Regardless of this Fabricant guy's history, I can't possibly see how it would be damaging to send a letter to your representatives about opposing pre-market approval for supplements, which is all that votervoice form does. It's not kratom specific but still worth doing, I feel, as these kinds of things are all we really can do at the end of the day to "make a difference".

[kratomwriter]

You gotta be kidding -- NPA ?? Nobody should participate in anything from NPA - Fabricant, is a well known OPPONENT of kratom. Fabricant has in the past, advocated for kratom to be Banned... and you're say join HIS "fight" ?? I don't think so! - You're batting 100% here. On every single issue, you're Wrong! That's quite amazing. But... there IS tons of mis-information out there... I suggest wait for Mac Haddow, and Rep Mark Pocan's advice - Definitely NOT this guy and his NPA... they're anti-kratom.

Daniel Fabricant, Ph.D.
President and CEO
Natural Products Association

I knew you were going to say this. Yes, I'm aware of Fabricant's history, and the NPA's attacks on kratom (I literally went full-on detective mode on them through the Freedom of Information Act) and his name and NPA were the first things I noticed on the form. Yes, Fabricant is a wishy-washy political piece of garbage. But everything is political and out of our direct control. We can't even vote for the people we really want; we don't have a democracy. Haddow has issues too, and NPA has taken anti-kratoms stances, and I don't trust them.

We basically have to pick an evil robot to side with who will fight for what we want to be done politically at the moment, and then go back to hating them. Who knows if Fabricant will try to push for a kratom ban down the road? Then again, with the changing tides, who knows if he'll become pro-kratom? All I know is that we CAN'T let this pass. We can worry about Fabricant later, when he's doing something actually threatening like this Act. For now, at least, his stance aligns with our cause. You have to play the game as best as you can to get something done that will affect people's lives. If you hold off until you have the perfect solution, you'll never be able to change anything.

The key is to think critically for yourself. On this issue, I decided to sign the petition, knowing full-well Fabricant's history. Fabricant's stance against kratom and his stance against this draft are hypocritical. After this, do you think I'm going to side with Fabricant on everything, like a blind dog? No. I don't support Fabricant, I signed this because it's important for the public. Take everything anyone says with a grain of salt; just be on guard, and don't let things slip past you.

If you want to help out, you can also sign the AKA's petition instead if you want.

It doesn't matter if it's through NPA or what, it goes to Congress. In fact, the more pro-kratom people signing via NPA and AKA, the better. Let's fuckin swarm the NPA with pro-kratom voices.

[kratomwriter]

No, we cannot be complacent. For those who don't feel like reading the law, I'll share a scenario with you.

The way things currently are:
1. The FDA decides it doesn't want a supplement, ingredient, or product on the market.
2. The FDA writes letters to companies warning that their product is "adulterated."
3. The FDA and the companies go to court.
4. The defendant can refute the FDA's claims, argue its case and present its records of product traceability, as well as present any lab-tests or scientific evidence of the safety of their product
5. If the FDA fails to meet the burden of proof showing that the product/ingredient is unsafe, the court can rule against the FDA.

Although imperfect, the way things are is what currently protects kratom companies (and supplements companies, such as those selling NAC and CBD). Companies have a way to refute and defend themself. The emphasis here is on safety; currently, the FDA only truly has power when products present a safety threat. Now, things could be very different soon...

The way things would be if the FDASLA draft gets passed:
1. The FDA decides it doesn't want a supplement, ingredient, or product on the market.
2. The FDA requires that the company mandatorily register to list their product as a supplement.
3. The FDA decides, at its own discretion, that the ingredient doesn't meet the definition of a supplement.
4. The FDA makes an administrative decision to remove it from the market because it doesn't meet the FDA's definition of a supplement.
5. The company is screwed and cannot defend itself; its products are all seized and destroyed, and the ingredient is effectively banned from the market.

In this case, the FDA's old argument "well, if kratom is put into capsules, it's an adulterated supplement" (yes, they unsuccessfully tried to use this against kratom—the AKA's lawyers showed up—despite using the same argument the other way against currant oil, which the court smacked down) would allow them to require kratom companies to register their product as supplements. Then, the agency would decide that it doesn't meet the requirement, so the FDA would bar kratom from the market, literally screwing over any company that sells kratom.

Or, all of this promising University of Florida research going on makes the FDA decide to research kratom as a drug. BAM. DONE. GOODBYE KRATOM AS WE KNOW IT. As soon as the FDA researches kratom as a drug, it will be banned.

We cannot let this pass. I know some of you think that it's just another flimsy source of worry that will amount to nothing, but you're sleeping on a potential fire here. This is probably a more serious threat to kratom in the US than the WHO review. Any time a kratom vendor gets sued by the FDA, I read the court case and any related documents I can. Vendors are far more protected now than they would be if this should pass.

I'm not fear-mongering, I'm just stating the realities of what absolutely could happen. I agree, it's crazy to think the FDA is not out to get kratom, I mean the FDA has been ACTIVELY trying to get kratom OFF THE MARKET SINCE 2011.

[kratomwriter]

Kelleytoons, thank you for your post. BallzDeep9, I'm sorry I questioned how much you care. It's clear that you care, a whole lot. When I first joined this forum, I instantly remembered your username from Reddit and other places because I learned a lot from you. Just browsing this forum, I still learn things from you all the time. Everyone here has something of value to say. I don't want to come across as close-minded because it couldn't be further from the truth—I love learning more. I have had many incredible discussions with people in this field, from the research side of things to the industry and beyond.

I'll be the first person to admit what I don't know, and while nobody is always right, I think I have a lot of information to share here and spark discussion. It's all from a place of wanting to inform and help. I'd really like to see this forum grow and unite. Okay, that's all, my sappy spiel is over.

[onespeedstop]

Or they kill it slowly with shipping laws. That's what's happening to vaping, it used to be cheaper than smoking, now that ya can't get it (vaping liquid) mail order, well, now it's not really cheaper (I used to get a weeks worth for $8.99 on sale online, now that bottle is $30-$40+ locally). And if I recall, kratom already can't be mailed to several states. Point being - no national or federal laws need to be passed for kratom to get cut off at the knees for a LOT of people and small businesses, if the states are quietly pressured behind the scenes (again, like some already have been).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I hope kratom doesn't grow in popularity, just let it be a sorta alternative thing for people in the know. Word of mouth will help it find as many new people as the number who quit it, and it can just 'be what it is now' forever.

[mivanqua]

currently, the FDA only truly has power when products present a safety threat.

And also bark at (some) companies who misrepresent their product (/don't pay their mob dues)
Its all the same entity. Scumbags. Oh such dangerous kratom! Gee, safety is your only motivation I'm sure. Like the "dangers" of ∆8, ∆9s weaker brother. Its really starting to piss me off.