Less is more...wait what?!?

[Badgame85]

So this statement has plagued me for more than half a decade. What does this mean to you?

The part of my brain that processes rationalization simply cannot grasp this concept. I have been utilizing kratom very regularly for 6+ years, and this statement always makes me annoyed because often many will say this is the answer to ALL your issues/problems with the effectiveness of your leaf . I maintained a pretty steady intake of 6-8 grams 2x a day (usually) and I've always struggled with tolerance and desired effects. Hold your judgement on the quantity of my dose I've had my periods of 40-50 grams a day...glad I shook that habit

What does this mean to you? Anyone have any experience with cutting your doses and then consistently getting great results after taking Kratom for an extended period of time? I'm not looking for a lecture on this but rather real experience of fellow members whom can vouch for this strategy. Did you obtain new effects/relief that you never had before? Or just stronger usual outcome?

I have had a few moments where I would cut my doses in half and I obtain the missing desired effects... but only when I'm getting almost nothing from my usual dose. Then this only lasts for a couple days until that reduced dose if ineffective and I'm back where I started.

[brave777]

When you cut doses to avoid WD's, its normal not to feel much or anything up to a week or two. If you got big ballz and cold turkey, you will shorten time frame and start feeling kratom earlier over cutting kratom with less for some period of time. By all means dont torture your self if you go cold turkey, try one gram if you cant handle the heat. If that doesn't work try 2 grams to lesson some wd's, i said lesson the wd's effects, that means you will still feel it but jut lessened. In no way try to feel anything, if you do, you will end up taking your regular does size. Point is, the less you take during tolerance breaks the faster you will reset your system to feel less is more. And if you can handle 3 days or a week with no kratom, its a big win. Less is more is only meant for those who had no kratom in system for at least 1 week. I dont think you will find someone who went from 20 grams per day to 2 grams per day and said Less is more works. People get confused with less is more when they try less, its like they dont know you need a tolerance break for it to work. I done it plenty of times and less is more definitely works after my tolerance breaks. Its completely fine when you cut less kratom not to feel anything, at least you wont have no major WD's, its the easy cheat way to get out or quit kratom. Simple rule, just take less then what you took previous day, or make less of each dose then what it was before. Dont feel bad about your dose size, i learned some batches you seemply feel sweet spot 4-6 grams, not that its weak but just that amount is a sweet spot compare to other strong batches where I stay below 3 grams. Know your strength batches as well.

Saying all that based of my experiences.

[Badgame85]

Saying all that based of my experiences.

Much appreciated... all great experience that is helpful and insightful. Thank you!

I get the less is more logic with battling tolerance, that makes sense and I can comprehend that. If your taking less to for a brief period of time then yes eventually that will have an effect and give you the improvement over the previous few days/weeks. However often I see comments from people whom don't need tolerance breaks taking strains that they have never had before, trying new vendors, getting reduced effects even after tolerance breaks...whatever the case may be. This is why I am confused when people indicate that the answer to all your problems is just take less.

For example... having just tried TFH for the first time I started really low based on recommendations with no success, then went to my normal range and bingo. This is after a regularly scheduled tolerance break regardless of trying them for the first time. I've also had moments where a strain I've taken often for a long time, I simply try less one time and seem to have better effects...but only that one time. Is it just doing whatever you can to break the norm that your body develops?

I think maybe I'm just tired of hearing/reading that "LIM" is the solution to whatever dilemma one is facing. Doesn't happen all the time, but more so than it probably needs to and doesn't always seem like an intelligent answer.

Consider this a rant from a seasoned veteran lol. My rant is over and I'm just jealous that some people are legitimately getting amazing results from taking less of something that they already take.

[su9861]

kratom works on a " bell curve " if you exceed a max dosage it will kind of reverse itself & has very negative effects such as nausea queasy etc I think there is a optimal dosage for any ( every ) particular batch & even blending a few strains together seems to help level out some of the alkaloids - to find that less is more factor

[brave777]

Cool, thanks for sharing, I think if everyone should share there experiences, that way we would get to the bottom of problems faster. A lot of people don't understand that all batches are different in strength and feel. Some batches less is more will never work, it simply has to be at higher dose. And some batches if you mess with it feels so overwhelming and powerful, sometimes you wish you had weaker one and just taken more. Biggest mistake anyone can make is run into those batch where 3 gram max has to be taken, like lucky's greens for example, or else if you take your regular 10 grams of that, you will not only feel like shit but might make you think you have 100% corona and then you might end up on ventilators. I mean i had those greens from other vendors similar to lucky once, but sure thing if its a new batch you better pray it don't have that super strength edge to it when you take your regular big dose. At 2-3 grams i always feel luckys super legit sweet clear awesome bright feel! On the other hand if you are used to super strength batch and been doing your 2 or 3 grams per dose, most likely you wont feel TFH or other great kratom, and that super strength kratom compared with a newer weaker version (not weak, just different) of it, has to be 4-8 grams. Especially if it is red. One thing i learned, there are fast greens, and even faster whites where it stimulates to the point when you get shaky hands and some anxiety especial on empty stomach. Push your boundaries but always start low is the best way to go. If you cant feel much, you can always add few more grams after an hour but if you take a big dose, there is no reversing but to lay down unless you puke some out or stuff your self with food to balance it out. I am starting to think 5-6 grams is where its all at for most kratom, and some katom is 3 or 2 grams max, like fast once or stimulant once. Not all greens and whites are at 3 grams max, some i could easily go up to 8 grams. It just boils down to knowing your batch and taking notes that way you dont make same mistake. I am now revisiting MID balanced batches and i can take more of that while feeling very balanced and there is none of negative feelings from it. I think mid is where all kratom is going to be at in the future, i noticed mid range i dont get headache feel, you just feel better if add more, like you feel it has nice edge. I think once people learn how to dry leaf to always make it mid range balanced, it will be very popular and it only makes sense to play it safe for sellers.

[otiesbotanicals]

Man I struggle with the same exact thing. Have been for a long time. Something I'm giving a try is micro dosing. I've seen several people on Facebook say they have had great success with it. Instead of taking five to six grams every four to five hours or so, I'm taking 2.5 grams every two hours. I literally just started doing it today I'm not sure how well it's going to work out yet. Every time I do a tolerance reset, which is a task in itself, I feel like what I gained back from the reset only lasts a week TOPS. I feelz your pain brotha

[Badgame85]

Biggest mistake anyone can make is run into those batch where 3 gram max has to be taken, like lucky's greens for example, or else if you take your regular 10 grams of that, you will not only feel like shit but might make you think you have 100% corona and then you might end up on ventilators.

You ain't kidding, I was out hiking with my dog sometime last year and I had taken my first does of some Benni's White MD (freshly opened - not sure what batch). Thought nothing of it when taking my normal 7.5g dose for some white energy for a puppy hike. Holy shit, I couldn't even walk after 60+ mins. The world was spinning and I felt like I was on a small boat trying to walk straight. Nausea, hysteria, stuck in the woods... Worst. Experience. Ever. This particular batch warranted probably a 1-3 gram max. So here the "less is more" logic I understand.

Awesome dialogue, and great perspective. You simply can't bottle up this whole industry into a specific set of directions. Each vendor/strain/batch is a science experience... and notes are a must!

[Badgame85]

Man I struggle with the same exact thing. Have been for a long time. Something I'm giving a try is micro dosing. I've seen several people on Facebook say they have had great success with it. Instead of taking five to six grams every four to five hours or so, I'm taking 2.5 grams every two hours. I literally just started doing it today I'm not sure how well it's going to work out yet. Every time I do a tolerance reset, which is a task in itself, I feel like what I gained back from the reset only lasts a week TOPS. I feelz your pain brotha

PLEASE come back and tell me how this works for you!!! I always wonder how successful people are with this and also see this often on FB under a few groups. I feel like this is just quitting with a slight WD preventer, but hey I can't comment until I try it. If that could keep me happy for 90% of the time and then randomly take a regular dose on occasion for some mega benefits I could get with that.

Yeah the tolerance breaks are a real challenge, and discouraging when I do them only to be back where I was within a few days. It is what it is though right?

[otiesbotanicals]

Haha yea definitely. It is what it is! Never understood how people talk about how they've been using Kratom for 8 years or whatever and never had a problem with tolerance like HOW!!?? Yea I started it today. I'll update you at the end of the week and let you know how it went......if I make it that far with it lmao

[brave777]

Biggest mistake anyone can make is run into those batch where 3 gram max has to be taken, like lucky's greens for example, or else if you take your regular 10 grams of that, you will not only feel like shit but might make you think you have 100% corona and then you might end up on ventilators.

You ain't kidding, I was out hiking with my dog sometime last year and I had taken my first does of some Benni's White MD (freshly opened - not sure what batch). Thought nothing of it when taking my normal 7.5g dose for some white energy for a puppy hike. Holy shit, I couldn't even walk after 60+ mins. The world was spinning and I felt like I was on a small boat trying to walk straight. Nausea, hysteria, stuck in the woods... Worst. Experience. Ever. This particular batch warranted probably a 1-3 gram max. So here the "less is more" logic I understand.

Awesome dialogue, and great perspective. You simply can't bottle up this whole industry into a specific set of directions. Each vendor/strain/batch is a science experience... and notes are a must!

Yap, you got it. It can also be looked at as very crappy batch since you went trough all that crazy feel from over taking it. Maybe that's why we get people some liking it and others don't. I think everyone should be aware of 3 gram max for new batches. 3 gram even if you over take it, is not bad at all and feeling shit wont last long. But 7.5 grams of strong white,, i dont know how i would act being stuck in the forest. First thing comes up to my mind is eat a lot of food or all the snacks from the bag, drink all the water. Or try to puke as much as possible by putting two fingers into your mouth, after eat. In this case if want to take a lot, only for reds, i cant remember once having side effects from 6 gram reds. Just really chilled out. I think what is going on is, people confuse very strong batches that are only 3 gram max with all other great kratom. They are not the same. I cant imagine some kid abusing weak ass kilo ending up on this strong stuff for the first time and first high dose ending up in ER. That can easily happen. Taking notes is very encouraged. Even writing note on the bag it self. Like very strong stuff i always write 1-3 gram max on the bag, all mid specs, i usually like them around 6 grams and 3 grams if want weaker feel and more stimulant effect.

[BallzDeep9]

kratom works on a " bell curve " if you exceed a max dosage it will kind of reverse itself & has very negative effects such as nausea

OH man that Bell Curve is wacko - is that from a vendor ?? Y'know the whole "everything we know is wrong" about Kratom... vendors tryin' to sell sell sell, in a biz where there's 200 vendors all tryin' to SELL!!

So we finally figured out the "strains" nonsense is BS, but also, we finally get a Standard Serving / Recommended = 2 Grams. yes that's right 2 Grams (for everyone who's not a heroin addict.) And assuming good quality kratom. A light dose would be ONE gram, and "heavy" would be 3, which is 50% more... Nice to see more & more vendors being honest, and putting a Serving Size = 2 grams right on the bag. Just like any other herb or supplement.

Nobody should need 4 grams, on a clean system, empty stomach. EXCEPT - those who HAVE already high tolerance/ blown out Receptors... sure, might need 4+ grams ?? But those "other alkaloids" still kick in @ large servings, and here comes sedation, constipation, tired, feeling exhausted, hormones, hair falling out... ALL those negative side effects which happen at high dosages. Kratom CAN be used for opioid detox, BUT should be carefully tapered down, each dose carefully weighed... Opioid addicts just shoveling down spoonfuls of the stuff, NO idea of WTF they're doing, is a bad idea.

The whole game is, up-regulating Receptors. Tolerance Management! NOT... "potentiators", drinking grapefruit juice, lol. Those who claim to take high daily servings AND enjoying kratom, are just In Denial... that river in Egypt ? We all know, the addict behavior sure everything's just fine. No. You're not enjoying kratom... you're only taking "doses" to feel normal, and "Inter dose" withdrawals suck! Basically... need to lower GPD until you no longer suffer withdrawals. FOR ME - that was dropping from around 20 gpd... All the way down to 5 gpd.

[BallzDeep9]

I have had a few moments where I would cut my doses in half and I obtain the missing desired effects... but only when I'm getting almost nothing from my usual dose. Then this only lasts for a couple days until that reduced dose if ineffective and I'm back where I started.

One analogy - Kratom works on our m♪ opioid receptors... Kind of like a bucket. Taking more & more opiod agonists (kratom) fills up your bucket until... it's FULL. That's when kratom "stops working", you need to KEEP some air in the bucket... Never fill it full. It's called... Headroom.

Headroom. Another analogy - that horror movie where you're in a room, filling slowly with water? For awhile you're taking a bath. Then you're swimming. But - pretty soon you're treading water. Getting tired and... Water keeps rising. Until - you bonk your head on the ceiling!! And... you're running out of AIR!!

Kratom DOES have a "ceiling effect"... Never bonk your head on the ceiling! Always... LEAVE some Headroom. Lower Tolerance, by using "time" taking breaks... but also: Agmatine Sulfate/ Black Seed Oil / Memantine... A few add-ons which are known to up-regulate opioid receptors. I do a Taper down, WITH a 1-week Agmatine cycle (1 gram before bedtime). Takes a few days, after that cycle... So 10 days, to up-regulate Tolerance and then, BOOM you'll feel kratom again, @ much lower serving!

[Sanbutsushin]

Making the obligatory "if you need more than 2-3 grams to feel anything then that's fine, we're all different" post. If kratom has taught us anything it's that our bodies all react to it differently. If after all the experimenting you find that what works for you is over 2-3 grams, that's okay. Especially if you're making tea and filtering out the powder - you will undoubtedly need more than if you were consuming the powder itself.

Ultimately it comes down to this: You know your body infinitely better than any person on the internet does.

[Trippyhippydippy]

Haha yea definitely. It is what it is! Never understood how people talk about how they've been using Kratom for 8 years or whatever and never had a problem with tolerance like HOW!!?? Yea I started it today. I'll update you at the end of the week and let you know how it went......if I make it that far with it lmao

I definitely have been on 2 teaspoons for awhile now8 months maybe, but was up to a tablespoon for each burn. I will say its been since 2015 and i have had breaks over the years or resets, but whenever i hit 2.5 teaspoons doing more doesn't seem to help so i plateau there forever. Tototman here says he can get ripped on 1/4 teaspoon as if it was 5 grams after his reset, but i never had that luck. Everyone is different i suppose hydration, nutrition, physical health, all has a play on your kratom.

[Loveandpeace]

There really is no better term than the 'Sweet Spot'

I am so tempted to become a vendor so I can name my company that.

Texas Family Sweet Spot Kratom... haha

I hover between .90 and 1.2 every dose for over 2 years now.

[mivanqua]

Recommended = 2 Grams. yes that's right 2 Grams (for everyone who's not a heroin addict.)

- Ballz

So, I can openly admit that I'm a little bit crazy (and it's all you guys fault! ) but this is mucho crazy. You can't just make generalizations like that. I have been using a small Baskin-Robbins spoon (not the sample and not.the regular, they have one in the middle) for five years now (whenever I go there {rarely} I get a couple more, but they are hot pink so they stick out.) and I always assumed it was five-six grams, but even if I compact it in and put more on top, it comes out to be no more than 3.5 grams. I guess that makes me a heroin addict.
There is also the batch to batch variation, each one is different, some take more, some take much less, I mean, I think this is about more than just some green powder. I try to keep up with that shit. I have a baseline and then "a little extra" for those high stress/labor days. That's kind of the fun of it. Man.
Cool off your jets on telling everybody how to play the game and what they are if they don't play "your way." I mean, I think it's funny, but plenty of people aren't such decided and deliberate NON-heroin addicts (these last pile of years anyway) and it's too close to home




and too near the bone



There ballzdeep



Just saying. This message NOT approved by Morrissey.




This has been a bot.

Some times I'm more crazy than others, but always sober. I mean, opiates. I still drink once a year(ish) and I still smoke pot. With my past, that's considered sober. Your definition may vary and that's Kool and the Gang. We all gotta get through this our own way, and that's mine.

[Kelleytoons]

I suspect the vast majority of folks take the powder - I wonder what, if any, difference there is between those of us who take capsules.

One thing for sure - it's MUCH harder to judge effects when they don't start for over an hour. And impossible, then, to vary anything (if I were to take too low a dose I can't chase after it because I'm always an hour or more behind, so I just have to journal and try again next time). This is still another reason I'm working on getting tinctures down, as I can regulate things MUCH finer (and perhaps only take a few grams at a time - as it is now, from the very beginning I've never felt anything with less than 4 grams).

This month is a bad one for me as I'm playing tennis four days a week so no real time to take a break other than the weekend - in months past I could take a three day break (Friday/Sat/Sun) and then things worked great for me on Monday. I have been taking Agmatine once a day but might bump it up to some at night as one person here suggested. I think I'll also get some black seed capsules as well.

[BallzDeep9]

So, I can openly admit that I'm a little bit crazy (and it's all you guys fault! ) but this is mucho crazy. You can't just make generalizations like that ...
Cool off your jets on telling everybody how to play the game and what they are if they don't play "your way." I mean, I think it's funny, but plenty of people aren't such decided and deliberate NON-heroin addicts (these last pile of years anyway) and it's too close to home

yeah I think you're doing a Personal take and it definitely wasn't meant that way !! Every single Herbal supplement has a "Recommended Serving", some there's a range but usually best to suggest a Minimum amount on the bottle or package... Sure we all know Kratom is special, and different, and all that but vendors can't just say: Recommended Serving = Whatever

You know I appreciate your comments, My point was, that Kratom's main action being the mµ opioid Receptor, same Receptor as opiates, So - Explains why many who ALREADY have an opiate Tolerance.... NEED to take more. Just common sense, but it's always "Less is More" and that goes double for people who DON'T have any opiate Tolerance!! Who are being told - "Whatever", or go ahead and take 7 grams. Which causes many people to.... puke!!

I know you're a good guy & you don't want newbies puking up their Kratom!!

[mivanqua]

Not at all and I didn't mean anything by it, I just feel like if I was 1 year or.less into my sobriety, it would have made me mad.to read that. I can't even rightly say why. As I said I took it NOT that way. I know you are on a level as well and don't want.to, as my mom always says, "ruffle any tail feathers" just pointing that out.

I mean, I used a Morrissey quote! I don't just.throw Smiths quotes around., although every word I've ever written here (or.anywhere) could be considered a Smiths quote because I'm a Smith....legally. No hard feelings, none at all.

[Kelleytoons]

Explains why many who ALREADY have an opiate Tolerance.... NEED to take more.

Most likely why I need to take 5-6 grams. At this point in my life, having been prescribed opioids for decades on a regular basis (nothing *too* heavy, but at least two or three a week) I don't even feel them anymore. One of the reasons I came to Kratom was to get away from the script but I always have felt like I was an "abuser" of Kratom since my doses need to be so high (honestly - I HAVE tried lesser doses and I might as well just skip them).

It's tough when so many need so little to admit how high a dose I need. I honestly am not chasing a high - just an effect at all.

[SaintsWillConquer]

"MORE IS MORE!" - Yngwie Malmsteen

[add to descartes]

ok I've asked this before, but...

if less is truly more, why are extracts so popular?

[Kelleytoons]

There's at least one person here who says that *most* extracts are crap. I know the two or three I've gotten as samples (with an order of powder - not my choice, just put there by the vendor) were indeed "crap" - had zero effect. But since there are a TON of ways to create extracts there's no real way of comparing.

The best explanations I've heard for "less is more" boil down to three things: 1. Too much you throw up so why waste it? 2. There are certain receptors that turn off if they get too much and therefore they won't react well - like flipping a light switch to off the effect is total darkness so no effects at all. 3. Taking too much you develop tolerances and thus won't feel the effects at lower doses.

That last one makes the most sense to me but who really knows? We don't have much (any?) studies on this and it's all anecdotal evidence. It really just boils down to what works for the person - for me anything less than 4 grams has NEVER worked. I mean never, no matter what. For others they say they take .5 grams and they are good to go. AND I've seen others taking insane amounts each day (but they seem to be chasing a high that Kratom never really delivers - I think those are addicts and some folks just have that issue).

For me my tincture "extracts" don't mean they are any more powerful but I get to take less and easier. So I take 1/3 teaspoon and it's like taking 6 grams (which is a heckuva lot more than 1/3 teaspoon). That makes sense to me. 50x Extracts don't.

[add to descartes]

depends on what you mean by "insane," that's subjective. I don't identify as an "addict," but I have had periods earlier in life where I was addicted to different substances, including various opioids. I definitely think it contributes to having a higher tolerance; whether that's psychological or physiological (or both), I don't know. either way I have a tolerance to kratom now, so I have to take more, but I still get great effects from where I'm at now. for me, more is more.

[Kelleytoons]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be judgmental - people can do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt others. But I have seen some folks say they were dosing at, say, 150 grams a day and that did indeed seem to me to be insane. But, again, I don't throw stones.

The biggest frustration to me has been trying to help my friends and family and giving them SOME kind of advice on what dose to try. I always do the "start with a gram and adjust upwards from there" but even that is tricky when, as I said, some people here say .5 a gram works great. I dunno - the more I read about Kratom the less I think I know <g>.

[onespeedstop]

"MORE IS MORE!" - Yngwie Malmsteen

Having heard him since the beginning, and losing interest after his 4th album or so, I'm going to have to politely disagree with Mr. Malmsteen ha-ha.

[add to descartes]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be judgmental - people can do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt others. But I have seen some folks say they were dosing at, say, 150 grams a day and that did indeed seem to me to be insane. But, again, I don't throw stones.

The biggest frustration to me has been trying to help my friends and family and giving them SOME kind of advice on what dose to try. I always do the "start with a gram and adjust upwards from there" but even that is tricky when, as I said, some people here say .5 a gram works great. I dunno - the more I read about Kratom the less I think I know <g>.

yeah, 150grams is objectively insane.

as for a starter dose, I usually suggest ~3 grams. some people do get by on 0.5-1gram, but it's uncommon. but you always have to take body weight and body chemistry into account, so it varies. I think for most people, 2-3 grams as a first time dose is enough to get a good idea of what it's like, without running the risk of being too much. I have given friends 3-4 grams and that seems to be a good amount, I don't think most people would be able to feel <1g doses.

[Trippyhippydippy]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be judgmental - people can do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt others. But I have seen some folks say they were dosing at, say, 150 grams a day and that did indeed seem to me to be insane. But, again, I don't throw stones.

The biggest frustration to me has been trying to help my friends and family and giving them SOME kind of advice on what dose to try. I always do the "start with a gram and adjust upwards from there" but even that is tricky when, as I said, some people here say .5 a gram works great. I dunno - the more I read about Kratom the less I think I know <g>.

yeah, 150grams is objectively insane.

as for a starter dose, I usually suggest ~3 grams. some people do get by on 0.5-1gram, but it's uncommon. but you always have to take body weight and body chemistry into account, so it varies. I think for most people, 2-3 grams as a first time dose is enough to get a good idea of what it's like, without running the risk of being too much. I have given friends 3-4 grams and that seems to be a good amount, I don't think most people would be able to feel <1g doses.

I dont think less than a gram will ever do much for me even after a break but it can come down to close to a teaspoon or so for my body chemistry. I have given 1.5 teaspoon about 3 grams to two friends who never tried kratom and it made them spinning sick unable to get out of the car to walk to a waterfall and on the edge of puking. It was Fisher tea co. white strains in 2018. im currently working on getting down to 1 teaspoon myself to then take a break from kratom and come back again. It does hit at lower dosage, but everyone is different and you have to take a break. Your receptors and endorphins need time to bounce back to normal. Exercise helps greatly and supplements.