Citric acid destroys all the 7-ohm?

[HappyHulu]

Someone posted this response on a thread in r/kratom. Can some of the experts on here give me their opinion on this? I know many of us use some type of citric acid to draw out the alkaloids. Thanks in advance.

"mixing with acid is possibly one of the worst things you could do. It donates a proton to the hydroxyl group on the 7-ohm turning this into water and mitragyine."

Source - https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/20/3/4915/pdf

[whiffypants]

I know many of us use some type of citric acid to draw out the alkaloids.

I know I do, and the paper supports this, reaffirming that mitragynine is acid soluble, "acid labile" and as such is "easily degraded" by gastric fluids (which are, of course, acidic). No great surprise there. It also adds multiple times that mitragynine is "poorly water soluble".

I kind of liked hearing that, because my doses these days are t&w with citric acid and water, and taken immediately after mixing. So all I'm doing is helping my own digestion, the way I'm reading this.

"mixing with acid is possibly one of the worst things you could do. It donates a proton to the hydroxyl group on the 7-ohm turning this into water and mitragyine."

This may be true, I don't know, but it's is not in the paper -- the paper just didn't go that far at all. All it really said is that in multiple tests with simulated gastric and intestinal fluid, the mitragynine is easily released in the stomach, to the point of being readily degraded there, and taken up in the small intestine.

Again, this is no surprise. Many pharmaceuticals are subject to degradation in the stomach, and this is compensated for by various means, like buffered tablets and the like. Seems like we do this organically with kratom when we titrate our doses to give us the effects we want. I'm just not seeing a problem here either way.

(Additionally, because I personally suffer from low stomach acid, it's a confirmation to me that I'm accidentally doing the right thing by adding acid, though that may not be true of everyone, of course.)

Of much greater interest to me were the repeated statements in regard to mitagynine's lipophilic ("fat-loving") nature, to the point that it says this property "warrants a detailed investigation using various lipid base carriers" and suggests that adding mitragynine to fat is one way to "improve its solubility in aqueous media" (see page 4922, top paragraph).

It actually makes me want to experiment with making kratom butter. Simmer a mix of kratom and butter over low heat for a while and see what happens. Maybe make some brownies.

Can some of the experts on here give me their opinion on this?

Oh, wait, you wanted an EXPERT. In that case I don't know what to tell ya.

[herbalhippie]

This is all very interesting! Thanks, you two!

[BallzDeep9]

Someone posted this response on a thread in r/kratom. Can some of the experts on here give me their opinion on this?

yeah right.. "Someone". Some self appointed expert haha.. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one!

In this case, it's good ole Bama Kratom aka Mitra Genie, a guy who knows some things.. BUT of course, has no Chemistry degree or Pharmacology degree so isn't really qualified on the science Take it with a big grain. Why even post his BS here?

What would Dr McCurdy say? The PDF paper, is a very interesting study.. It says nothing about 7-Ohm. So you're asking a question about 7-Ohm, but the paper you've linked isn't about that.. It's about Mitragynine.

Hey I'm just as qualified as Alabama, to pontificate on the Internet .. You're eating kratom right? Not boofing it ?? OK then you're putting kratom through some very, very, strong acid. How strong? Stomach acid has a PH of 1.2 -- Battery acid is 1.0 -- that gives you an idea

So using his logic, all the 7-ohm is destroyed before it hits your bloodstream? I do like his suggestion of Coconut Oil. The paper is highly technical, but a very interesting read... the take-away? Kratom, Mitragynine, in raw form is not very bio-available. So.. using a citric acid prep, and or mild ascorbic acid, (both of which are > ph than stomach acid.) makes sense.. along with freezing which is a mechanical step, to release alkaloids. That's my 2 cents

[whiffypants]

You're eating kratom right? Not boofing it ??

I guess that's -one- way to keep mitragynine from getting degraded by stomach acid.

Think I'll leave that to the young'uns, for me it's got "Lost Weekend" written all over it...

[aqtgirly4u]

Wow. Super interesting read.

So I usually take my Kratom with grapefruit juice but I think I'm going to try something new now.

What I'm thinking is you want to promote a quick emptying of the stomach as to prevent as much degradation from stomach acids as possible. To me this means empty stomach. Also, going to try mixing with small amount of chocolate milk to protect from degredation in stomach and maybe 1/2 to 1 tsp of MCT oil to act as a lipid carrier for absorption in small intestine.

Thanks for sharing this article. I'm such a science/biology geek!

[HappyHulu]

Thanks everyone. I've been freezing my dose with a little bit of lime (overnight) then simmering and straining and get great results (less side effects). I may try and freeze a dose without the lime, just for S & G's. I do remember Nerds saying something about adding coconut oil (after simmering) to his tea for longer legs so I may try that.

[WotAnAtti2d]

It's just like Ballz said. This "person" (I can't say what I really think; I might get banned.) said this in MeWe, and I challenged him on it. I told him to give me the chemical equation, proving it. He gave me an organic chemical diagram. He didn't even know the compound structures and his "equation" looked like what an eighth-grader might scribble down. He has no knowledge personally of what he speaks.

And honestly, if you use a method and it works, are you going to believe someone when they tell you that it doesn't work? Come on.

Coconut oil mini-tutorial: https://imgur.com/a/FBbnd

[HappyHulu]

It's just like Ballz said. This "person" (I can't say what I really think; I might get banned.) said this in MeWe, and I challenged him on it. I told him to give me the chemical equation, proving it. He gave me an organic chemical diagram. He didn't even know the compound structures and his "equation" looked like what an eighth-grader might scribble down. He has no knowledge personally of what he speaks.

And honestly, if you use a method and it works, are you going to believe someone when they tell you that it doesn't work? Come on.

Coconut oil mini-tutorial: https://imgur.com/a/FBbnd

Wow, didn't know that about him. I just like to get different ideas and experiment. Thanks Wot.

[pray4peace4]

Someone mentioned trying to get the kratom out of the stomach quickly. You can do that by drinking a carbonated beverage right after dosing. Carbon dioxide causes the stomach sphincters to open early. But whether or not that increases the availability of alkaloids is a separate matter. The stomach breaks compounds & cell walls down to aid absorption in the intestines & cutting that short may reduce the effect. I just may give that a try & find out.

[HigherStateD]

A ppi antacid might also have a positive effect, decreasing the available muriatic acid in the stomach. Soda water also would neutralize the ph.

[HappyHulu]

Very interesting. Thank you, both. Also, on a different note, if anyone has problems with headaches and nausea, due to dehydration - I've found using the Nuun hydration tablets you dissolve in water, specifically the Vitamin tablets (they have one's for energy, etc. too) have worked wonders for me.

[magick_cat]

You're eating kratom right? Not boofing it ??

I guess that's -one- way to keep mitragynine from getting degraded by stomach acid.

Think I'll leave that to the young'uns, for me it's got "Lost Weekend" written all over it...

If you’re using extract or a low dose, putting it under your tongue works too! I tried it with the powder and it kicked in a lot faster than usual.

[BallzDeep9]

You can do that by drinking a carbonated beverage right after dosing.

Oh good info ... thanks! I think many of us are trying to develop/ optimize a dosing procedure for raw powder kratom. Besides just crude T+W.. Caps are even worse, for absorption. So.. it usually involves some powder prep technique, and then consuming either as hot tea, or cold liquid.

Citric Acid, small amount in lemon juice or bulk, HELPS to break down raw powder kratom, and make the alks more bioavailable. Freezing is a mechanical method of crushing raw powder, with the same goal - releasing alkaloids.

As the paper discussed, adding a lipid "carrier" to pass alks through stomach, would be helpful. Coconut oil would do that, in hot tea, however it's a solid at room temperature.. Coconut oil does not mix in a cold smoothie. A tbsp of a lighter oil, maybe canola, added to cold kratom drink should help.. with a chaser of Dr Pepper!

Potentiating kratom with WGFJ and or cimetidine is another topic. YES. It is positive factual information

The question "Citric Acid destroys 7-Ohm?" Answer = NO. It's negative mis-information, aka bullshit

[BlendsAreMyFriends]

... Also, on a different note, if anyone has problems with headaches and nausea, due to dehydration - I've found using the Nuun hydration tablets you dissolve in water, specifically the Vitamin tablets (they have one's for energy, etc. too) have worked wonders for me.

For nausea I use ginger candy or candied ginger root. For headaches, when I feel one coming on I drink Gatorade. Either orange or lemon / lime.