Question for the most knowledgeable members

[zeroblackzx]

Hello hello.


I would like to preface this post by saying that I have been using kratom for some years now. I am sure that there are many of you with more experience than myself but by no means am I a newbie. Additionally, I am very diligent, even obsessive, about researching psychoactive substances that I may or may not put in my body. So please don't think that I have not done my share of searching for the information I am looking to clarify here.


With that out of the way, I am trying to make sure that I understand a few things correctly. I cannot count how many times I have read, "add lemon juice (some sort of citric acid) to your kratom because it breaks down the cell walls/helps extract the alkaloids to make your kratom more potent" The more I see people say it, the more I think that it has become so widespread that everyone believes it because well, everyone has heard it.

My multi faceted question is:

What is the interaction between kratom powder and citric acid?
Does citric acid cause cell lysis alone or make lysis by freezing more effective?
OR, does it not have anything to do with lysis, but instead, gives the alkaloids something that is easier to bind to?

After so much reading, I feel more confused at what people are trying to say- Does the juice help EXTRACT the alkaloids? Does the juice BREAK DOWN THE CELL WALLS? Are both of these phrases trying to say the same thing?

I was under the impression that, lemon juice (since that seems most common) does not cause lysis or potentiate kratom. But, the inhibition of the liver enzymes will result in a longer lasting experience which is why many believe it to strengthen the effect.

Can anyone help clarify this for me and provide the scientific data to support? If I worded a question poorly or didnt make sense please let me know lol Im pretty tired so writing this was a struggle.

Thank you!

[Burninator]

You rang?

...jk. I’ll see myself out.

[amagdalene]

Paging Fused Flora! Pls respond lol

[mivanqua]

I don't have any scientific data to support this, only the word of a moderately knowledgeable character i spoke to about this subject.
Yes. Citric acid causes cell lysis. If you freeze kratom without the citric acid, guess what? No red bubble. In essence, i think the citric acid is integral to the process of.breaking down the cell walls.

Now...GET OUT!

[fusedflora]

Though realistically, the more I discover the more I realize I don't know, I'll try to answer.

What is the interaction between kratom powder and citric acid? It depends, it has a few different interactions. I'll try to answer below.

Does citric acid cause cell lysis alone or make lysis by freezing more effective? Both, think like opening a house and you have a crowbar and a big rock to bust a window... Two different methods, and one works better in certain circumstances.

OR, does it not have anything to do with lysis, but instead, gives the alkaloids something that is easier to bind to? Not something easier to bind to, but consuming most citrus acids a few hours before kratom can put the body in an alkaline state, making it easier to digest and absorb more alkaloids from kratom powder.

After so much reading, I feel more confused at what people are trying to say- Does the juice help EXTRACT the alkaloids? Does the juice BREAK DOWN THE CELL WALLS? Are both of these phrases trying to say the same thing? Yes.

The best study I've found was Etha Botanicals, showing that if one uses citrus in tea prep, one would have a better extraction. The summary is located here: https://ethanaturals.com/kratom-tea-research/ Though they were happy to share the raw data when asked. It's about as good a study as you'll find on lysis and kratom.

For the alkaline digestion, there's no shortage of articles about it. And again no shortage of studies showing that even as an acid, the body processes citrus acid as alkaline.

So yes, citrus will lead to a better extraction when making tea. And though I would not label it as a potentiator, effects could increase due to increased absorption and digestion from being in a aline state (more of an indirect potentiation).

[starshine]

Though realistically, the more I discover the more I realize I don't know, I'll try to answer.

oh my gosh, isn't that the truth. glad it's a reality even for the most knowledgeable and experienced!

expanding on the citric acid idea... I remember reading that if it sits too long in citric acid, it can destroy the alkaloids. do you find this to be true? if so, how long do you think 'too long' might be?

Thank you for always generously sharing your knowledge Fused. it's very much appreciated.

[fusedflora]

Though realistically, the more I discover the more I realize I don't know, I'll try to answer.

oh my gosh, isn't that the truth. glad it's a reality even for the most knowledgeable and experienced!

expanding on the citric acid idea... I remember reading that if it sits too long in citric acid, it can destroy the alkaloids. do you find this to be true? if so, how long do you think 'too long' might be?

Thank you for always generously sharing your knowledge Fused. it's very much appreciated.

Most alkaloids are basic in nature, and would combine with acids to attempt to get neutrality, but I've seen no studies to show "how long". Powder typically doesn't mix with powders, so citrus in kratom powder is likely not an issue, but once you add water.... you make gremlins.

I would say the better question is "how much citrus" as I think the rate of nullifying the alks would hinge on the amount of acid presented. Being a weaker acid, it will take a long time for it to break the walls, even longer then to combine with the weak base to neutralize (as some acid would be lost in reacting to break the walls). The body takes a similar approach as it metabolizes kratom, breaking it down again and again until it is passed or used in other processes (exposing to acidic substances like saliva and stomach acid. In saying, the average studied half-life of kratom in the body is 12 hrs, so I would believe that somewhere over this is how long would be "too long," as this would account for the body's extreme efficiency and it's process of using and breaking it down (body should be faster). Though that'd just be my theory and completely dependant on what citrus was used and how much.

[starshine]

Though that'd just be my theory and completely dependant on what citrus was used and how much.

makes sense to me. I like logical theories

I was curious because I just made up a couple of batches of tea with 8g powder to 16oz. hot water with the juice of half a small lemon (~ a tbsp). that would be two doses (4g of brewed leaf, strained, each) and, normally, 'brewed' overnight, and could then sit in my fridge for a couple/few days. considering your comparison to half-life/acid in our bodies, I'm thinking maybe it would be smarter to make some at night... with just enough for the next day.

[starshine]

not trying to steal your thread here zeroblack , but was also wondering if anyone knows how ascorbic acid (vitamin c) compares to citric acid in regards to breaking down cell walls/potentiating. does it at all? curious because my bf prefers to mix his in apple juice and let it sit overnight and it seems to work better for him that way. so I'm guessing there's something to it?

[Loveandpeace]

And this wonderful forum provides again. Great OP question, worded well. Thanks for the answers guys, I simply love this place.

[BallzDeep9]

.... was also wondering if anyone knows how ascorbic acid (vitamin c) compares to citric acid in regards to breaking down cell walls/ potentiating. does it at all? curious because my bf prefers to mix his in apple juice and let it sit overnight and it seems to work better for him that way.

I think your bf is "On to something" there! Even better mix in some citrus bioflavanoids with your red bubble tea. Gives your kratom antioxidant power, it does seem there is a basic synergy with vitamin C and kratom.

ACV (acetic acid) also works to extract alkaloids... along with heat and freezing. Those are 3 steps in optimal Tea making. Use either ACV or citric acid (Lemon juice or powder), however powder citric acid is derived from black mold not fruit. That's the citric acid used as a preservative in all food products. ACV seems like, a more wholesome natural product (with The Mother!) and so... makes sense to use apple juice for mixing your Tea after the heat +ACV +freeze. Let's say I use 6 grams powder/ 8 ounces (or less) Hot water.. after cooling down & freezing & thawing, I'll add an equal amount, 8 oz apple juice - I like un-filtered best. ( here I also add, vitamin C, bioflavanoids and some Mag Citrate.) Now I've got a full 16 oz liquid Tea in the fridge, which contains the 6 grams... for me that's 3x 2g servings, or 2x 3g strong servings... Yes it does seem a little stronger the 2nd day? After sitting in fridge 24+ hours?

• Ascorbic Acid = Vitamin C.
• Citric Acid = Not a vitamin!

[zeroblackzx]

Hey there!

I'm sure that everyone would agree that a big thank you is in order for a fantastic response from @fusedflora !

I greatly appreciate the time you took to answer my questions and remedy my confusion. Haha, I'm sure that I would still be digging around for answers had I not posted here.

Im glad to see that others may have learned a thing or two as well!

I am very happy to be part of this awesome community

[Jfish030]

Citric Acid possibly increase the ph in your stomach? Maybe that envrioment helps with processing and breaking down the powder/organic material better. Possibly leading to more being available to be absorbed? All that is a guess