Most stimulating strains:The White Vein Fallacy

[7ohm]

A very common myth about Kra8om is that "White" vein is what causes the stimulant like effects. We now know that vein color, or strain have no bearing on how Kra8om effects are categorized. Let me clarify: different color veins do exist, but 1)there is no evidence of a different alkaloid profile, and 2) Indonesian farmers do not discern between vein colors or strains when harvesting leaf. Hopefully, it's become common knowledge that the variance in effects from Kra8om are not due to genetic differences among varietals. Instead, like Tea, all Kra8om comes from the same one plant.

So, if genetics doesn't determine the alkaloid profile of Kra8om leaf, what does? (Metabolism)

It turns out that how it's dried determines the level of oxidation, which in turn determines the levels of Mitragynine. This level of Mitragynine seems to be what single handedly determines the effects of leaf. It seems that when a large amount of Mitragynine is involved like in extract, it is void of any opioid effect. Instead, the effect seems much more stimulating, and sleep is hard to come by, presumably from Mitragynine. Additionally, when this occurs there is often wobbles associated with it. This also happens with some indoor dried leaf (as high as 2.1), which has a high concentration of Mitragynine. MItragynine has been called the great neuromuscular blockade by researchers and is most likely the cause of this eye muscle weakening phenomenon. It is important to know that Mitragynine is also a cyp3a4 inhibitor.
However, when the levels are lower, like in sun dried leaf (reds)(about 1.2%), the effects is much more opioid like. This could explain why reds are perceived as having this effect. When reds are dried for a long period of time like they are with bentuangie, the levels drop to levels as low as .3%. Additionally, if you take a poll of any vendors' most popular leaf, it is almost always a moderate level. One of the strongest strains that I've had only tested at 1.6%.

So, what seems to be happening is that High levels of MG inhibit the cyp enzyme to a point where this conversion is not happening. There seems to be a threshold level where this happens, meaning that it continues to convert to 7ohm until it reaches this level. So, anything below this, and you continue to get conversion, increasing 7ohm and the opioid effect.
How do we know that the stim effect comes from Mitragynine? A recent study by Boyer et al. showed the binding affinities of other target central nervous system receptors. This recent study quantitatively demonstrated Mitragynine's affinity to the a2a adenosine receptor, a neuromodulator responsible for facilitating sleep. These receptors" are responsible for the effect of caffeine on wakefulness." The Adenosine antagonism produced by Mitragynine, is not unlike that of coffee. So, it is a safe to assume that Mitragynine might largely be responsible for the stimulant effect of Kra8om, especially given the high level of inhibition of adenosine found in the posted study and lack of a competing theory. It is also interesting to note that this effect has a ceiling, as you can't inhibit this mediator more than 100%, which means zero adenosine production in the brain. You can't have negative adenosine.

Mitragynine is maximized by minimizing the level of oxidation, and by inhibiting the cyp3a4 enzyme, preventing the conversion into 7ohm. Since MG oxidizes from sun, drying the leaf in a dark room would prevent photooxidation. Therefore, the most stimulating leaf would have to be green leaf dried in the dark. "White vein" in Indonesia is made with 60% indoor green, 30% outdoor red, and 10% stem and vein. It is widely believed by Indonesians that stem and vein is what causes the stimulating effect. Having assayed and sold large amounts of stem and vein myself, I would beg to differ. I have some if you want to try it.
The perceived stimulating effects of "White Vein" Kra8om appear to be purely placebo effect. Leaf with high MG would inhibit said enzyme and theoretically be less sedating, and conceivably more stimulating. A considerable amount of the psychoactive effects that comes from Kratom seem to come from MG, while the Opioid effect seems to be from 7ohm. So, why would you mix a red (or stem and vein) in with a green when looking for cognitive alertness? Hence, the belief that "White" Kratom is the most stimulating has no scientific foundation. Instead, an indoor dried (high mitragynine) leaf is the most stimulating. This also disproves the idea that more equals opioid and less equals stim.

[RubberToes]

Thank you for the informative read and very well written!

The more i learn about Kratom - the more I realize so much (effects) is in my head

[IndelibleDotInk]

Great post, thank you.

[Playerpiano72]

Very interesting. I expect to see some hard pushback on the idea of whites not being stimulating. Personally I can totally see it being placebo. I don't typically get much of a stimulant effect from any kratom, but I don't use whites much at all because the ones I've tried don't seem to have that, or any, effect. I have had certain strains that seem to have an upper quality to it, not limited to whites, so I wonder what the variables would be that would cause some burns to feel faster. Does that mean that a "fast" green is placebo as well, and no kind of kratom has stimulant properties?

[Drewbie]

Thanks for the post!

I follow the logic based on the scientific research, but this part makes me pause :

"White vein" in Indonesia is made with 60% indoor green, 30% outdoor red, and 10% stem and vein.

I am no expert, but it seems from what I've read from people in the 'know' - most Indo vendors do not stick to a strict recipe for their leaf. I highly doubt a majority of Indo vendors create a 'white vein' by using that above formula. If they do all use that same formula, then I would agree that it might be more of a placebo effect. But in my head cannon, some vendors may dry their stock in the dark and indoors, and call it white, but others might stick it in a bag and let it ferment and call it white. Maybe that last sentence is an exaggeration, but I have ordered white vein that had that dark red color before, which comes from fermenting.

So, if there was really one set way that Indo farmers prepared their leaf, I would agree. But I really think it varies widely from farmer to farmer. Which makes it harder to pinpoint what really makes a vein a vein. But I do think the scientific research is awesome, and would trust that leaf with more mitryganine (not even gonna try to spell it right without looking it up), would produce a more stimulating effect. Unless US vendors and Indo farmers have open and honest communication, it is impossible to really know how its being treated, and therefore impossible to make a clear correlation.

I think the vendors that seem to take care to create a consistent experience for their customers create a label for the leaf based on its effects? But if you feel a vein has more stimulating effects, you can say to yourself 'ahh this leaf has a higher proportion of Mitragynine'.

Good looks

[7ohm]

Thanks for the post!

I follow the logic based on the scientific research, but this part makes me pause :

"White vein" in Indonesia is made with 60% indoor green, 30% outdoor red, and 10% stem and vein.

I am no expert, but it seems from what I've read from people in the 'know' - most Indo vendors do not stick to a strict recipe for their leaf. I highly doubt a majority of Indo vendors create a 'white vein' by using that above formula. If they do all use that same formula, then I would agree that it might be more of a placebo effect. But in my head cannon, some vendors may dry their stock in the dark and indoors, and call it white, but others might stick it in a bag and let it ferment and call it white. Maybe that last sentence is an exaggeration, but I have ordered white vein that had that dark red color before, which comes from fermenting.

So, if there was really one set way that Indo farmers prepared their leaf, I would agree. But I really think it varies widely from farmer to farmer. Which makes it harder to pinpoint what really makes a vein a vein. But I do think the scientific research is awesome, and would trust that leaf with more mitryganine (not even gonna try to spell it right without looking it up), would produce a more stimulating effect. Unless US vendors and Indo farmers have open and honest communication, it is impossible to really know how its being treated, and therefore impossible to make a clear correlation.

I think the vendors that seem to take care to create a consistent experience for their customers create a label for the leaf based on its effects? But if you feel a vein has more stimulating effects, you can say to yourself 'ahh this leaf has a higher proportion of Mitragynine'.

Good looks

Whether everyone is using the exact same recipe that the Borneo Kratom Association uses is somewhat irrelevant. The point here is that any mixture of the known types of Kratom couldn't scientifically explain how there is perceived stimulation. The only logical explanation is adenosine antagonism, which is the same mechanism by which caffeine, another psycho-stimulating alkaloid causes the perception of mental alertness.

Vendors get erroneously blamed for the false info spread around by Indonesians. They take the strain as given and evaluate it by characteristics of mood, analgesia, etc.. Very few vendors will assay the strain, then give it a label based on effect. .The evidence suggests that all of these effects are a result of the 2 main alkaloids. So, having varying proportions of these two types of Kratom could only yield a limited number of alkaloid profiles.

The scary part is that this is the age of misinformation, and now possibly disinformation. This misunderstanding of the plant prevents us from using it medicinally. We need a more scientific explanation than what Indonesians have to offer. Stem and vein is white when dried. Making Kratom white by adding this element, then saying it's stimulating demonstrates the placebo effect. There is no scientific explanation for why "white" formulas, regardless of recipe, would explain the stimulating effect.

From one of the founding members of the Borneo Kratom Association: "Strain is just a name bro. You tell a customer it does something, then it will do it". This huge Kratom supplier only sells red, green, and white. He includes with your import order, the "bible" containing all the recipes of popular "strains". White, as any Kratom Exporter will tell you, is blend of red, white, and stem and vein.

[7ohm]

Very interesting. I expect to see some hard pushback on the idea of whites not being stimulating. Personally I can totally see it being placebo. I don't typically get much of a stimulant effect from any kratom, but I don't use whites much at all because the ones I've tried don't seem to have that, or any, effect. I have had certain strains that seem to have an upper quality to it, not limited to whites, so I wonder what the variables would be that would cause some burns to feel faster. Does that mean that a "fast" green is placebo as well, and no kind of kratom has stimulant properties?

I'm not sure why it is that people are so resistant to empirical scientific research. it's not unlike what's gong on with Covid19. People stubbornly believing that there are a myriad of "strains" is detrimental to the Kratom movement. Circulating misinformation and having ridiculous discussions based on this fallacy is pure ignorance, and pretentiousness. This creates confusion.

What comes to mind is the anti-vaccination and "flat earth" movement. There is a growing number of people subscribing to the flat earth theory, regardless of how illogica or unfounded it is. I think that it's amazing how many people will just believe whatever they intuitively feel is correct and throw reason out the window.

People who believe in "strains" might as well believe that the earth is flat. It is essentially the same reasoning. Consistency and predictability are two key elements in evaluating the medicinal claims of Kratom. If we were to use the strain paradigm, we would consistently get inconsistent results. The only explanation for this phenomenon is the Placebo effect. Whatever we believe will happen, will ultimately happen. If it's the case that one chemical, Mitragynine, is responsible for a particular effect, then then only thing that matters is whether that chemical is present or not. Only by varying concentrations of one alkaloid can you achieve different levels of that one effect. There are no other chemicals that vary by "strain" that could account for any of the known effects of MG.

If you believe in science, then you should not subscribe to this ridiculous strain paradigm. You don't believe me? Then at least believe in this empirical observation by a Vendor who went to Indonesia and posted pics and told of his account. https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... ersonally/

[onespeedstop]

I thought I had read that kratom is "in the coffee family" of plants ? If that is the case, then it could be some kind of caffeine, or similar compound in it that is brought out during a certain type of drying process - which is pretty much all the different 'strains' are right ?

I'd swear I've gotten a little extra energy or "focus" or whatever from *some* whites, but it's just not really possible to actually measure. And even then, whatever I felt, has happened from way more green strains than white ones. So who knows, maybe someday they will actually (scientifically) study it and we'll get some answers.

[BallzDeep9]

We now know that Vein color, or strain have no bearing on how Kratom effects are categorized ...

It turns out that how it's dried determines the level of oxidation, which in turn determines the ratio of Mitragynine to 7ohm. Some lab tests have shown a considerable increase in levels of 7ohm when dried in the sun compared to that dried indoors. It has been postulated that sunlight causes photooxidation of Mitragynine as it interacts with the phytochemical, the dissolved oxygen in the plant matter and the sunlight, converting it to 7ohm. The trade off in these 2 alkaloids within a plant seems to be what determines the alkaloid profile and consequently the effects of the dried leaf ...

hey there 7Ohm. Thanks for starting! Great topic for holiday week.. here on MM, we get into deep stuff! Anyway... Two points. 1- IF your statement (above) on "veins and strains" is true... Then why limit that fallacy to whites? Would not the same heresy or distortion... also apply to Reds? In fact, that's what leading kratom research has found? After looking at a variety of "strains"... there's not much real difference in alkaloid content, or ratios, between Reds and greens. The main difference seems to be color?

Last year, spring 2019 a study was done by Dr. McCurdy and associates who research kratom at U. Florida. They compare ten different Strains. The science paper abstract is here: LINK, and a Reddit discussion of that paper is HERE -- McCurdy and his staff found little difference between the various strains they've analyzed. One Red has higher 7ohm, another Red is lower! One White has a higher 7Ohm compared to greens. There are small differences between these batches. But even the highest 7Ohm, is too small to produce "threshold" effects within the human body!

Much thinking about alkaloids, Sun vs indoor drying to produce 7Ohm, comes from a Scientific American study of 5 years ago, which is now a bit outdated since other research has been done, which really questions the entire 7Ohm theory...

2- Second point deserves its own Post. What is the kratom powder content of "7Ohm" aka 7-hydroxymitragynine... IS that enough 7Ohm to produce threshold analgesic effects? And what happens to Mitragynine in the human body, when metabolized by liver enzymes?

[brave777]

Ok , do i understand this correctly? There is only 4 main ways to dry it to make slight different effects.

1. Indoor = To get best quality it needs to be on a rack with mesh under to get fresh air flow + temperature. You get fast clean effects with no sedation or maybe very little.

2. Outdoor + Sun = Even if its outdoor, sometimes there is no sun for weeks there for it has less 7ohm compare to lots of sun days. Outdoor dry has more sedation depending how much sun it got, less sedation if less or little sun.

3. Plastic Bag + Sun = is what called bents? Where the leaf turns brownish color? Great for relaxing, but has high chance getting mold in if leafs were wet and put in bag? maybe thats why some bents smell somewhat moldy? This is just all assumptions. But i did have some bets that had good results if it was even was bents plastic dried?

4. Stem & Vein = Most stimulant provider. What are the chances source mills leafs with stem and veins? can that be automatically called whites? Also the factor of leaf being indoor, outdoor, plastic bag plays a roll, just stem and vein never taken out but milled into powder. Or stem and vein alone left outdoor to get dried in the sun then later added to kratom power be it indoor dried or outdoor dried. what i wonder is if there is a difference if stem and vein dried indoor vs outdoor. can indoor be extremely stimulant and out door stem and vein be less stimulant if dried out door?

whats everyone thoughts?

[CatfatherB]

Ok , do i understand this correctly? There is only 4 main ways to dry it to make slight different effects.

1. Indoor = To get best quality it needs to be on a rack with mesh under to get fresh air flow + temperature. You get fast clean effects with no sedation or maybe very little.

2. Outdoor + Sun = Even if its outdoor, sometimes there is no sun for weeks there for it has less 7ohm compare to lots of sun days. Outdoor dry has more sedation depending how much sun it got, less sedation if less or little sun.

3. Plastic Bag + Sun = is what called bents? Where the leaf turns brownish color? Great for relaxing, but has high chance getting mold in if leafs were wet and put in bag? maybe thats why some bents smell somewhat moldy? This is just all assumptions. But i did have some bets that had good results if it was even was bents plastic dried?

4. Stem & Vein = Most stimulant provider. What are the chances source mills leafs with stem and veins? can that be automatically called whites? Also the factor of leaf being indoor, outdoor, plastic bag plays a roll, just stem and vein never taken out but milled into powder. Or stem and vein alone left outdoor to get dried in the sun then later added to kratom power be it indoor dried or outdoor dried. what i wonder is if there is a difference if stem and vein dried indoor vs outdoor. can indoor be extremely stimulant and out door stem and vein be less stimulant if dried out door?

whats everyone thoughts?

Also, some bents are made indoors out of light and are green in appearance.. it makes me cringe now seeing people assuming that anything brown in appearance has been fermented, it more than likely is just oxidized on a tarp in daylight instead...

[7ohm]

Ok , do i understand this correctly? There is only 4 main ways to dry it to make slight different effects.

1. Indoor = To get best quality it needs to be on a rack with mesh under to get fresh air flow + temperature. You get fast clean effects with no sedation or maybe very little.

2. Outdoor + Sun = Even if its outdoor, sometimes there is no sun for weeks there for it has less 7ohm compare to lots of sun days. Outdoor dry has more sedation depending how much sun it got, less sedation if less or little sun.

3. Plastic Bag + Sun = is what called bents? Where the leaf turns brownish color? Great for relaxing, but has high chance getting mold in if leafs were wet and put in bag? maybe thats why some bents smell somewhat moldy? This is just all assumptions. But i did have some bets that had good results if it was even was bents plastic dried?

4. Stem & Vein = Most stimulant provider. What are the chances source mills leafs with stem and veins? can that be automatically called whites? Also the factor of leaf being indoor, outdoor, plastic bag plays a roll, just stem and vein never taken out but milled into powder. Or stem and vein alone left outdoor to get dried in the sun then later added to kratom power be it indoor dried or outdoor dried. what i wonder is if there is a difference if stem and vein dried indoor vs outdoor. can indoor be extremely stimulant and out door stem and vein be less stimulant if dried out door?

whats everyone thoughts?

Also, some bents are made indoors out of light and are green in appearance.. it makes me cringe now seeing people assuming that anything brown in appearance has been fermented, it more than likely is just oxidized on a tarp in daylight instead...

"Fermentation" or the attempt of, has been the number one way to make "red" kratom in Indonesia. Non of the methodology for how Indonesians dry leaf has any scientific basis except that yes, indeed, it does change the alkaloid profile (for the worse, I would argue).

Fermentation seems to be a trend of the past, possibly did more harm than good, honestly. I did a survey of a bunch of leaf that was tested in labs, and found that the only strain that ever tested positive for mold was bentuangie. Allegedly, this method was used to shorten the long time that it took for just the direct sunlight to turn leaf red. Now, apparently drying in ovens seems to be trending as the main way to make leaf red, adding a sanitizing element. Aside from the color and reduced Mitragyine, what's the point? If 7ohm is obtained from converting Mitragynine in our bodies, then the phenomenon of "red" kratom has just been a hoax. It does not appear to be the case that reds have any more 7ohm than greens. If you think about it, the process of fermentation can only be minimal. The rest of the chemical process taking place in those plastic bags, I would argue, is mold growth. I would avoid bentuangie unless it's been lab tested. I can't think of one benefit. Ultimately, you get less with reds.

Supergreen has gained immense popularity as leaf that is dried directly in sunlight for several hours before it is dried in the shade. It takes a long time (over a week) for leaf to turn red from direct sunlight alone. UV kills microbes, and theoretically causes photooxidation which could convert Mitragynine into the much stronger opioid agonist 7ohm.

So, yeah. Allegedly, it is now: Oven dried red (no more bent), Sun dried green, Shade dried green, and "Bones" stem and vein (no evidence of stimulating effect). The only difference appears to be the levels of Mitragynine, which are considerably lower in sun dried leaf. In Thailand, they used to charge more for reds, presumably because of how long it took to process. I actually know a farmer who lives on a plantation right near the border of Thailand and Malaysia. Although many Indonesians claim to be farmers, very few can answer questions on how it's processed. Most "traders" in Indonesia simply. buy from a processor and then mix their own "strains". Nobody knows exactly how to get the magic batches of Kratom. Everything we assumed to be true with oxidized leaf appears to have been bullshit. Again the context of all of this is the 50+ certificates of authentication that I looked at from 3 well known, reputable vendors who have been in the game for over 3 years. All had roughly the same amount of 7ohm regardless of "strain" or how it was dried.

[7ohm]

Smoke shop Kratom, Mass produced leaf has more stem and vein in it. You can see it as it does not grind down to the consistency of leaf. There are little white specs. In my years of importing, this is the one element that has improved dramtaically. I think that the smaller processors in Indo are much more meticulous about picking all of it out: much more likely than a producer who has to process large quantities. I think this attributes to how much stronger Kratom has become over the last 5 years. The more leaf you have to process, the more stem and vein are going to be left behind, I would argue.

[7ohm]

We now know that Vein color, or strain have no bearing on how Kratom effects are categorized ...

It turns out that how it's dried determines the level of oxidation, which in turn determines the ratio of Mitragynine to 7ohm. Some lab tests have shown a considerable increase in levels of 7ohm when dried in the sun compared to that dried indoors. It has been postulated that sunlight causes photooxidation of Mitragynine as it interacts with the phytochemical, the dissolved oxygen in the plant matter and the sunlight, converting it to 7ohm. The trade off in these 2 alkaloids within a plant seems to be what determines the alkaloid profile and consequently the effects of the dried leaf ...

hey there 7Ohm. Thanks for starting! Great topic for holiday week.. here on MM, we get into deep stuff! Anyway... Two points. 1- IF your statement (above) on "veins and strains" is true... Then why limit that fallacy to whites? Would not the same heresy or distortion... also apply to Reds? In fact, that's what leading kratom research has found? After looking at a variety of "strains"... there's not much real difference in alkaloid content, or ratios, between Reds and greens. The main difference seems to be color?

Last year, spring 2019 a study was done by Dr. McCurdy and associates who research kratom at U. Florida. They compare ten different Strains. The science paper abstract is here: LINK, and a Reddit discussion of that paper is HERE -- McCurdy and his staff found little difference between the various strains they've analyzed. One Red has higher 7ohm, another Red is lower! One White has a higher 7Ohm compared to greens. There are small differences between these batches. But even the highest 7Ohm, is too small to produce "threshold" effects within the human body!

Much thinking about alkaloids, Sun vs indoor drying to produce 7Ohm, comes from a Scientific American study of 5 years ago, which is now a bit outdated since other research has been done, which really questions the entire 7Ohm theory...

2- Second point deserves its own Post. What is the kratom powder content of "7Ohm" aka 7-hydroxymitragynine... IS that enough 7Ohm to produce threshold analgesic effects? And what happens to Mitragynine in the human body, when metabolized by liver enzymes?

What does that mean: what is the Kratom content of 7ohm?

What do you mean by what's important is the color of the powder? What indication does that give you?

I'm not really sure what your point is regarding white being the most stimulating. It is, or it isn't?

You are correct about how the industry has been treating Kratom, but Im not sure which Scientific American article you're talking about. I've been going off of journal articles, which presumed that oxidation, more specifically photooxidation is what affected the levels of 7ohm in leaf in the, hence the various drying methods. In fact, a researcher surmised that there was photooxidation taking place in the leaf, possibly accounting for the differences. Whether you believe that to be the case scientifically or not, this is simply how the industry in Indonesia is, as confirmed by the Borneo Kratom Association and any legit supplier.

The study you quote says all Kratom is the same. Certainly, people would disagree with that. 10 samples is hardly a representative sample. I actually took a survey of over 50 lab tests, and there was quite a bit of variance in green vs red, even from the same supplier. I can share them with you if you'd like. The difference was not so much in the levels of 7ohm (although it varied quite a bit), but in the levels of mItragyinine, Reds have significantly less (>.50), and with no corresponding increase in 7ohm. 7ohm varied from .001 to .05. I've heard from a couple of vendors (not verified) that they had levels as high as .4 in reds. The study about metabolizing it in rats just came out a year ago. Up until then it was thought to be oxidized. If you think these amounts are too little, then consider Morphine, which is effective at less than 1 mg. An 8g dose of Kratom would yield 4 mg of 7ohm at .05%. If 7ohm does indeed have a MOR score higher than morphine, then wouldn't that be sufficient to produce the opioid effect? At .4% the effect should be significant.

Also, the amount of MG that a leaf tested for had no relevance on what the effects were like. The most popular "strains" from these vendors only had moderate levels of Mitragynine which fluctuated by batch. Leaf that had unusually high levels of MG were not perceived by users to have any different effect, good or bad.

Adenosine is produced naturally by the brain to help modulate sleep and in essence makes you sleepy. By preventing the production of it is where you get stim/alertness/wakefulness like with caffeine. The panel presented shows 86% inhibition at that receptor from Mitragynine. The only variation that exists in this plant appears to be the levels of these 2 alkaloids. Everything else seems rather insignificant and is only found in trace amounts. It is so insignificant that it it's hardly even studied. The 3rd most abundant alkaloid, Mitraphylline, is a strong anti-inflammatory and has shown efficacy in treating cancer tumors, as have other natural antii-inflamatories like CBD.

It would also stand to reason by the liver enzyme theory, that the higher levels of MG would yield higher levels of 7ohm, resuting in a greater opioid effect. This does not appear to be the case. White being most stimulating is as inaccurate as red being the most opioid. We also know that there is nobody in Indonesia separating any color vein when harvesting leaf. The Borneo Kratom Association does not recognize "vein color" as a type of kratom. The industry does not separate vein color. Vein color is not a genetic varietal. Every plant grows all color veins.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... ersonally/

So, what explains the unique effects of "white" or "red" kratom? There appears to be no scientific explanation, but here we all are separating our leaf into "red, green and white" as if they were "strains". What the Kratom industry is doing vs what can be validated through science are 2 different things, unfortunately. My point is that it appears as though a lot of what we thought has been incorrect, vein color/strain paradigm specifically. Could a lot of what we thought was from Kratom be just Placebo?

[7ohm]

I thought I had read that kratom is "in the coffee family" of plants ? If that is the case, then it could be some kind of caffeine, or similar compound in it that is brought out during a certain type of drying process - which is pretty much all the different 'strains' are right ?

I'd swear I've gotten a little extra energy or "focus" or whatever from *some* whites, but it's just not really possible to actually measure. And even then, whatever I felt, has happened from way more green strains than white ones. So who knows, maybe someday they will actually (scientifically) study it and we'll get some answers.

Caffeine works in the same way: by antagonizing adenosine, which modulates sleep. It inhibits it's production just like caffeine does. Adenosine makes you sleepy. Going without it makes you more alert, reducing the need for sleep. If you look at the slide, you'll see that they found a strong inhibition at that receptor.

[brave777]

Wow 7ohm, thanks for dropping some knowledge boms. I am going to avoid Bents now to avoid molds. I hope vendors reading this don't change names now and call it red vietnam or something lol. lets hope we got honest vendors here.

I have a very interesting curious question for you 7ohm, if its secret you dont have to answer. My question is, i got some fast green and if i wish to make them not to fast and slight more on sedating side, how would i do it with oven? Or it does not work that way? If it does, what temps, how many mins and should it be tin layer layed all across aluminum sheets?

[MycatTimmy]

This is all so fascinating. It feels as if we are on the verge of a major breakthrough in Kratom knowledge due to the efforts of you small vendors. The research you are doing is invaluable in advancing the Kratom industry in a positive direction. Thank you for what you are doing.

I have a question also. If I take the same batch of Kratom too often it feels like the favorable effects become lessened. I vary batches and vendors every serving. Is this just placebo and/or tolerance ?

[Bradweber1982]

White for some reason is that one color I can't find any success with. I've tried multiple but can't get any results

[GrannyJ62]

Wow Thank you all for sharing and 7ohm for starting this thread,I know I'll be back to read it again.Thus explains to me why I get pain relief no matter what its called,I love them all.I know when I choose my daily servings I most definitely have a lot of favorites.Two of my favorites are Whites tanjung and samarinda and I get great pain relief for me it just comes down to how it makes me feel or not feel.I guess kratom s like a bix of chocolate s you never know what you get,but at least I know by listening to you all which vendors always have quality.So much good stuff.

[WeAllFloatHere7]

I've considered this being a possibility for awhile... Whites always gave me anxiety, until one day, they didn't. I took a white that was supposed to be CRAZY fast and I had forgotten when I had taken, so I had no placebo going thinking about what I took. It actually made me a little tired, and was super enjoyable. Since then I've been adding whites to blends and not having any problems. I really have to wonder if you're on to something here... I'm kinda thinking about taking a "fast" white in the morning and seeing what happens. Thats assuming I can bring myself to go into it with an open mind and don't put myself in an anxious state over it...

[brave777]

Back in the days, white would be a hit or a miss, it was hard to find mid ground. to some degree i feel it still holds true today. Out of 10, you might hit 2 whites that will beat green and reds. its possible to order 3 whites from different vendors and all be crap or just ok. But once you hit that white lucky pot you will know. Its out there. But if want to take less chances getting ok kratom, i would go for greens, Some reason Green Borneo, I cant remember last time i had a bad green borneo, it give decent energy flow and some what stimulant. Even Green GMD, From Lucky, Mitra, Fused, all very nice.

[7ohm]

This is all so fascinating. It feels as if we are on the verge of a major breakthrough in Kratom knowledge due to the efforts of you small vendors. The research you are doing is invaluable in advancing the Kratom industry in a positive direction. Thank you for what you are doing.

I have a question also. If I take the same batch of Kratom too often it feels like the favorable effects become lessened. I vary batches and vendors every serving. Is this just placebo and/or tolerance ?

The jury's still out on that one. If you were to believe solely in scientific research, the evidence is leaning towards placebo. While there seems to be some tolerance for 7ohm, Mitragynine is thought not to have any. Nobody has been testing for any other alkaloids except for the main 2.

To answer the question of whether a) there exist variable alkaloid profiles or b) whether there's enough of the "other" alkaloids to feel it, you'd have to do more comprehensive testing. There's also flavonoids like catechin, and other polyphenols that might contribute. One thing is for sure:extracts and leaf are two different animals. I would describe pure alkaloid extracts to be more one sided and stimulating. It's not extremely stimulating, but I never sleep much after taking it.

[7ohm]

Wow 7ohm, thanks for dropping some knowledge boms. I am going to avoid Bents now to avoid molds. I hope vendors reading this don't change names now and call it red vietnam or something lol. lets hope we got honest vendors here.

I have a very interesting curious question for you 7ohm, if its secret you dont have to answer. My question is, i got some fast green and if i wish to make them not to fast and slight more on sedating side, how would i do it with oven? Or it does not work that way? If it does, what temps, how many mins and should it be tin layer layed all across aluminum sheets?

Secrets in this industry are why we still can't figure this plant out.

As it turns out, we might have been wasting our time with the oxidation process. The lab tests don't show that it makes a difference how you dry it, except that it reduces the levels of MG. It could be that this reduced level of MG might allow for more conversion, explaining the "red" and "supergreen" phenomenon. It appears that differences in effect could be more us than the leaf. What we eat, and how much of this enzyme is in our body may be the deciding factor of effects.

This is a newly developed theory, but try taking St John's Wort Vitamin D, Echinacea with it. Avoid Grapefruit juice. Take a relatively large dose. The idea is that you want to increase the production of the enzyme responsible for converting MG into 7ohm. This enzyme is most abundant in your liver, but also found in your stomach and intestines. We are testing the possibility of there being a Mitragynine threshold level where this conversion process is halted or minimized by inhibiting the production of the enzyme. Here's some more on it:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7182