Does anyone actually know what's happening in Indonesia?

[WarmFoothills]

In regard to the 2022 export ban? Is this just a proposal from the drug agency or is it actually moving forward? Last I heard the Health Department wanted more studies to be done but I'm not sure we've heard much else. It's difficult to find detailed reports on and there always seems to be conflicting anecdotal information.

[Transformato]

It's hard to find quality information on this. I saw a post on Reddit sounding this alarm but with nothing (relevant) whatsoever to back it up.

>edit: Okay then. Thankfully we have direct sources shared below in another comment and some clarity. Thanks Balls.
I have withdrawn a stream of thought from earlier.

We've had what seemed like some peace time, which I'm grateful for. Uncertainties could be set down for a bit / not aggravated on a near weekly basis the way it was. But there are seasons.

[Playerpiano72]

Haha stomp of approval, that's great. Hopefully that never actually happens. If it goes full mainstream, common street dealers could try to muscle their way in and step on the kratom with powerful substances, like what's happening now with heroin being tainted with fent.

[BallzDeep9]

In regard to the 2022 export ban?

Thanks for starting this important Topic. Best source of information is the newspaper of Pontianak, West Kalimantan, Indonesia... access the paper at Link below. Use the Google Translate add-on in your browser, it works on Chrome, Firefox, and Edge browser. I think this works best on a large monitor display, maybe not so great on a tiny phone... From The Ponti Tribune website, Search on "kratom". There are several articles within recent months. Perform the Search before using Translate plug-in... below is article quoting the Governor of West Kali province, just 1 month ago, December 3rd:

https://pontianak.tribunnews.com/

Headline: Governor Sutarmidji Continues to Fight for Kratom Licensing

PONTIANAK - The Governor of West Kalimantan, H Sutarmidji is optimistic that in 2023 kratom will get permission even though until now the existence of kratom plants is still prohibited by BNN because it is considered to contain many addictive substances.

Governor Sutarmidji also promised to fight for kratom not to be banned. However, he said as long as the trade system was regulated so that it became a legal product. "I am optimistic that it will be allowed in 2023, provided that the trade system is regulated so that it becomes a legal product so that it becomes a source. It can even be exported officially. I will fight for that," he said, Thursday, December 3, 2020.

Artikel ini telah tayang di Tribunwpgtdswep3b73e3xoeekh7sayi--pontianak-tribunnews-com.com dengan judul Governor Sutarmidji Continues to Fight for Kratom Licensing, https://wpgtdswep3b73e3xoeekh7sayi--pon ... nan-kratom.
Author: Anggita Putri
Editor: Rivaldi Ade Musliadi

[onespeedstop]

So, as long as Governor Sutarmidji gets his cut of the money, it will remain legal it sounds like. Either way, legal or not, it seems likely that the price is gonna double in a year or two if anything is done. Or maybe they'll just forget about it, and go tax some other industry to death.

[gumbyke1]

No need to worry about it being banned, that hanging threat from the BNN (Indonesian National Narcotics Agency) appears to have cooled off. Trust me as a person who is heavily invested, I have been watching developments like a hawk.

A minor win for kratoms legality occurred in October 2019 when the Minister of Health revised the existing Narcotics Classification, after a review of items that were being pushed by the BNN for classification - kratom was deliberately left off of the revised list. (most people here didn't even know that was an existing threat... if it would have landed on the list I would have told everyone here immediately)

Then, in August 2020, the Minister of Agriculture categorized kratom as a medicinal plant, as the 66th item listed on the legal "Drug Plant Comoddities" list. This declaration has removed the possibility for it to be scheduled as a drug. This is important as it's the first time kratom has been recognized as a legal commodity, previously it had always been undefined and unregulated. This means that either the Indonesian government is adopting it as an industry vital to their rural economies, or powerful people/organizations have a plan to profit from it.

Along with government acceptance will likely come new regulations and taxes. If this occurs, there will likely be some much-needed regulations around safety and sanitation... that's a win for everyone. However, the potential taxes and cost of operating likely to be felt by the end consumer (IMO a worthy cost in most cases). Another terrible side effect may be that some of the smaller/specialized producers without conmections may be squeezed out of the supplier market, as regulations can make it too difficult/expensive for smaller exporters to operate or compete (often by design). If this occurs it will likely fortify the direction most of the kratom industry has been going - which the folks who grow/harvest kratom will sell their crops in bulk to the big exporting companies.

Being regulated as a medicinal plant, there is also the possibility of them assuming control of the flow of goods by requiring special licenses to operate in the industry. These requirements may be used to dictate who may operate as an exporter, and who/what type of companies may purchase it. Really it could be up to the ruling Ministers over how the licensing is controlled, one doesn't have to use the imagination too much to guess how that could become a problem.

I'm pessimistic about where things are going, but at least for now, I think the threat of an Indonesian ban is low.

[Playerpiano72]

Great reporting. How do indonesians pronounce kratom? Or in other words, what is the correct way?

[BallzDeep9]

How do indonesians pronounce kratom? Or in other words, what is the correct way?

They pronounce it with a flat "A" like Apple... slightly rolling the "R". Accent on first syllable... Krr-aaah-tum

Is that correct, Gumby?

[Playerpiano72]

So it rhymes with "atom"? KRA-tum? Or is it more of a KREH-tum

[f1vefour]

How do indonesians pronounce kratom? Or in other words, what is the correct way?

They pronounce it with a flat "A" like Apple... slightly rolling the "R". Accent on first syllable... Krr-aaah-tum

Is that correct, Gumby?

I believe they call it ketum

[WarmFoothills]

Wow thanks for all the helpful info everyone! Much appreciated.

[pray4peace4]

I can feel another massive buying spree forming in people's minds.

[gumbyke1]

I can feel another massive buying spree forming in people's minds.

Maybe, but I think it's completely unwarranted. There is really no need to be concerned about the flow of kratom right now - it's as safe as it's ever been. Please no panic buying - nothing good comes from it when it's not warranted.

[Babel-17]

The Kratom must flow.

[gumbyke1]

How do indonesians pronounce kratom? Or in other words, what is the correct way?

They pronounce it with a flat "A" like Apple... slightly rolling the "R". Accent on first syllable... Krr-aaah-tum

Is that correct, Gumby?

Its funny because the words used and even pronunciation have evolved over the last several years. Ballzd you are right regarding the pronunciation for the most part, but I often also here the "tome" sound at the end instead of "tum". However, its beginning to more and more be pronounced very close to what we call it (I am a "kray-dum" pronounced myself).

They used to have other words for it depending on the area like "daun purik", etc.., but they have more or less adopted calling it "kratom" simply because that is what we call it. If you notice in the picture of the newspaper I posted above, they used the word "kratom". (if you look closely you will have also noticed that right there on the cover of one of the biggest news papers in the Kratom capitol of Indonesia was a woman walking barefoot through some tarp-drying leaf. That is because it is the norm ).

It's kind of weird to think about it like this, but they often have viewed us (the American consumers) as the "experts" on kratom because its not something that is commonly consumed in Indonesia. However, they are aware that we think they are the experts, so they play the part to gain our confidence.... and trust me, they know how to "fake it till you make it". Early in my kratom industry journey, this facade fooled me for awhile - but it eventually became really transparent once I began actually working on a project. I thought the whole time that if I could just hook up with the right people in Indonesia I could learn all ins and outs of kratom production and improve on that. What I learned is that they, for the most part, knew nothing about kratom as a product - they just know how to grow/harvest trees for the best yield and then mill them into powder. Pretty much zero consideration was given to the final product - it was all just about the volume you could produce in the shortest time possible. Imagine my surprise when I began working with some folks that they were excited because they thought I could teach them all about the industry. I just came to this realization that there are were no "experts" somebody just needed to start experimenting with stuff (which is what kind of got me hooked on my journey). Nowadays there are more folks who are advancing thier techniques and production facilities, but I think the majority of the industry, in general, is far from where the free market will take it.

Its hard to find a good analogy - but imagine there was some rare fungus that mostly only grew on trees in Oklahoma and it suddenly became very popular in Asian cuisine. However, this fungus has a really offputting taste and an appearance by western standards, so not a soul in the US would imagine consuming it. There might be folks in Oklahoma that begin to harvest it because there is a new market for it - but it doesn't mean they would actually know anything about it. If they did invest in any research, it would likely be to learn how to grow/harvest more of it (better yield). Furthermore - they would likely be selling it to a local broker, so they would only pursue improving on what the broker they sold to cared about (which early on would almost certainly be volume). Eventually, somebody would come along and learn that if they could make a higher quality fungus, there would be a market for it. However, to start that journey they would almost certainly be looking towards the consuming population to learn more about it.

I know that kind of went on a tangent, but I hope it makes sense.

[BallzDeep9]

.... Some of the smaller/ specialized producers without connections may be squeezed out of the Supplier market, as regulations can make it too difficult/ expensive for smaller exporters to operate or compete (often by design). If this occurs it will likely fortify the direction most of the kratom industry has been going - which the folks who grow/harvest kratom will sell their crops in bulk to the big exporting companies ....
I'm pessimistic about where things are going, but at least for now, I think the threat of an Indonesian ban is low.

SAD... does that sound pretty much like, where many USA states, are going with kratom? "Regulation"

In other words... allow Big Money profiteers, to pay off politicians, their crooked Republican companies control the business, establish a monopoly... File lawsuits in court to harass small vendors... have State Police raid any small vendor who doesn't pony up the Big Money required to buy License, lease a warehouse, spend $ on un-necessary stuff like GMP factory equipment and silly expensive Lab Testing?

Sure sounds like... The AKA? and also, sounds like... Big Cannabis? Out-of-state "investors" Buy Out local farmers, and bribe politicians for a limited # of License to legally sell pot in that State? That's definitely happening in some states... I wish I had answers. I see AHPA Guidelines (American Herbal Products Association) are helpful but... Our political situation is SO messed up, and Indonesia ain't much better... Sure appears that Indonesia business, is based on American guidelines. We won't go into the History of mass killings there, 60 years ago, backed by our CIA.

Look! History Lesson... Counterpunch article, just last week!! https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/01/04 ... complicit/

[f1vefour]

Sure sounds like... The AKA?

I think the AKA is simply playing by the rules of the US government, I don't think it's for profiteering but that is certainly a wanted side effect for many supporters who have ulterior motives. I think this is just one of those situations where it is what it is because it has to be.

There is no question the AKA has done worthwhile work in keeping kratom from becoming illegal, the question is at what cost.

[onespeedstop]

gumbyke1 - That's kind of funny/interesting that they seem to know very little about what they sell. But from pictures/videos, they don't appear to have a lot of technology to work with. It does beg the question though - don't they understand the concept of higher quality/cleanliness ? If so, it stands to reason that some of them would (would have on their own even) adopt those concerns to be able to charge more for their product, and/or get buyers who would return again and again. It's been shown that it's cheaper to retain customers, than it is to do more marketing to find new ones, even if it requires discounts or extra services etc. In this case they could stand out from the crowd of other sellers with a demonstrably superior product, I mean they do know that most if not all buyers (vendors like yourself) use the product, and can determine it's approx. quality ? Though of course, quantity is always the easiest thing to measure, and being small farmers they may very well not have studied business.

[LeafersonJr32]

As far as quality goes it definitely seems like for the most part the indos still have a lot to learn about what makes great leaf. A good friend of mine dropped some serious knowledge on me last night this dude knows a ton about botany and what makes good alkaloid profiles in plants. We all hear all the time about these 30 and 40 year old trees but like he said no matter how old the tree is if it has weak genetics then its going to be weak even at 30 years old. If they would be able to base batches off the genetics of specific trees they could ensure consistent quality. Like he said he can get 3 different sets of genetics and grow them in the exact same growing conditions and everything the same and when they reach maturity some can have super strong alkaloid content and some super weak because of the genetics. Some of the most enlightening shit ive heard since gumbyke's post of behind the scenes

[WickedMadScientist]

As far as quality goes it definitely seems like for the most part the indos still have a lot to learn about what makes great leaf. A good friend of mine dropped some serious knowledge on me last night this dude knows a ton about botany and what makes good alkaloid profiles in plants. We all hear all the time about these 30 and 40 year old trees but like he said no matter how old the tree is if it has weak genetics then its going to be weak even at 30 years old. If they would be able to base batches off the genetics of specific trees they could ensure consistent quality. Like he said he can get 3 different sets of genetics and grow them in the exact same growing conditions and everything the same and when they reach maturity some can have super strong alkaloid content and some super weak because of the genetics. Some of the most enlightening shit ive heard since gumbyke's post of behind the scenes

Just like how you can have a set of twins, and one grows up and develops cancer, and the other one is as healthy as can be. It all depends on what nutrients we get throughout our lifetime, and our environmental factors. Same goes with our plants.

[LeafersonJr32]

As far as quality goes it definitely seems like for the most part the indos still have a lot to learn about what makes great leaf. A good friend of mine dropped some serious knowledge on me last night this dude knows a ton about botany and what makes good alkaloid profiles in plants. We all hear all the time about these 30 and 40 year old trees but like he said no matter how old the tree is if it has weak genetics then its going to be weak even at 30 years old. If they would be able to base batches off the genetics of specific trees they could ensure consistent quality. Like he said he can get 3 different sets of genetics and grow them in the exact same growing conditions and everything the same and when they reach maturity some can have super strong alkaloid content and some super weak because of the genetics. Some of the most enlightening shit ive heard since gumbyke's post of behind the scenes

Just like how you can have a set of twins, and one grows up and develops cancer, and the other one is as healthy as can be. It all depends on what nutrients we get throughout our lifetime, and our environmental factors. Same goes with our plants.

Kind of but they can grow side by side with same nutrients and EVERYTHING THE SAME but one with better genetics be much better and the other bunk