Possible New Vendor… offering free samples to anyone.

[CoopC42]

Hey there Double M,
So I have been lurking on here for a good month now and feel I have read all I can and that it’s time for me to make a post… I’ve definitely taken a lot of recommendations I’ve found on here and ran with them. I’m currently waiting on an order from Brees, and STH and will post my review when I have them in hand.

In other news… I stumbled upon a vendor on MeWe I haven’t seen talked about here before. (May be for good reason, we’ll have to see.) and they are offering completely free samples. wholeearthgifts.com. It appears they do resell some of the bigger name bulk Kratom brands BUT their samples are of their house imported powder…

So this may be something may be nothing but I could never turn down free samples… could I? Anyway here’s to my first post and to many more! Thank you for all the info you all have compiled. I am simply addicted to reading this forum.

[goinssonya9]

I really like Whole earth myself. I recommended them to my brother too. After trying their free samples, he know shops only with them for his kratom. I like to have a whole variety of different vendors but they in my top list.

[Badgame85]

In other news… I stumbled upon a vendor on MeWe I haven’t seen talked about here before. (May be for good reason, we’ll have to see.) and they are offering completely free samples. wholeearthgifts.com. It appears they do resell some of the bigger name bulk Kratom brands BUT their samples are of their house imported powder…

Wow, awesome friend. Thanks for the referral. I've ran into a few vendors in my travels that have offered free samples, and I this this is a good sign of a vendor/company believing in their product. Placed my sample order, and I've always loved the excitement and trying a new vendor hoping to find magic!

[Vipercuda69]

I didn’t expect much from WholeEarthGifts when I first ordered their free samples. Mainly because they also sell other brands that I feel are of inferior quality. But I was pleasantly surprised. The samples seemed very fresh and “above average” in quality. For what it’s worth, they source from GMP vendors and have Mitra levels indicated on the bags. Even the small 10 gram samples had Mitra levels indicated.

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

If in fact their samples are the same kratom batches that are in their larger bags, they are definitely worth giving a try. It looks like they are running a 30% off sale too. Four way split Kilos are $69 instead of $99 and shipping appears to be free, regardless of the size of your order. I recall the White MD and Green Borneo being quite good.

[CatfatherB]

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

ahh yeah! i guarantee you could land some good quality ounce size batches from Gaia right now but never try to upsize..learned that the hard way years ago..

[Vipercuda69]

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

ahh yeah! i guarantee you could land some good quality ounce size batches from Gaia right now but never try to upsize..learned that the hard way years ago..

I made the same mistake with them long ago. Ended up throwing away most of 4-250g bags. It was really that terrible. I told them it was entirely ineffective. They said to just take more. Ugh!

[CoopC42]

Wow, awesome friend. Thanks for the referral. I've ran into a few vendors in my travels that have offered free samples, and I this this is a good sign of a vendor/company believing in their product. Placed my sample order, and I've always loved the excitement and trying a new vendor hoping to find magic!
^^
No worries I figured it’s worth it for more people to review them that way we can get honest feed back. Plus who can turn down free kratom! I’m in the middle of sampling some Bree’s Botanicals right now I will post a review of it when I get through.

[CoopC42]

I didn’t expect much from WholeEarthGifts when I first ordered their free samples. Mainly because they also sell other brands that I feel are of inferior quality. But I was pleasantly surprised. The samples seemed very fresh and “above average” in quality. For what it’s worth, they source from GMP vendors and have Mitra levels indicated on the bags. Even the small 10 gram samples had Mitra levels indicated.

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

If in fact their samples are the same kratom batches that are in their larger bags, they are definitely worth giving a try. It looks like they are running a 30% off sale too. Four way split Kilos are $69 instead of $99 and shipping appears to be free, regardless of the size of your order. I recall the White MD and Green Borneo being quite good.

So with that being said would you say it is safe if I like the samples I get to order smaller quantities of the batches/strains I like? That’s a good price on a kilo.

[Vipercuda69]

I didn’t expect much from WholeEarthGifts when I first ordered their free samples. Mainly because they also sell other brands that I feel are of inferior quality. But I was pleasantly surprised. The samples seemed very fresh and “above average” in quality. For what it’s worth, they source from GMP vendors and have Mitra levels indicated on the bags. Even the small 10 gram samples had Mitra levels indicated.

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

If in fact their samples are the same kratom batches that are in their larger bags, they are definitely worth giving a try. It looks like they are running a 30% off sale too. Four way split Kilos are $69 instead of $99 and shipping appears to be free, regardless of the size of your order. I recall the White MD and Green Borneo being quite good.

So with that being said would you say it is safe if I like the samples I get to order smaller quantities of the batches/strains I like? That’s a good price on a kilo.

Like I said in my comment, “IF” and that’s a big “IF”, their samples are the same exact batch that’s in their larger bags, I would say YES. But there’s no way to know for sure unless you try them. They sell some of the large mass produced kratom brands and products that aren’t all that good, in my opinion. But they have a “house brand” called Whole Earth. It’s likely just repackaged/rebranded from another vendor. But their “house brand” samples were just as good as any other quality kratom I’ve tried in the last 6 years.

I suggest trying their samples first. They ship two 10g samples for free. You get to choose from White MD, Green Borneo, Gold and Red Bali. If you like the samples, I would call them and ask if the batch number will be exactly the same on a larger order. If so, I think you’ll be satisfied with your purchase. The White MD and Green Borneo were very good, in my opinion and high Mitra levels. It wasn’t bunk and not even average. It was definitely above average quality and I’ve tried probably 100 vendors over the years.

I only mention this bait and switch tactic because I’ve got burnt several times and know many others that have too. MoonK Tea for example. You get exceptional samples from a vendor, then when you place a bigger order, the kratom is clearly not the same. Different color, different smell and taste. Inferior quality as compared to the samples. If they confirm on the phone or via email that the batch numbers will be exactly the same, I would definitely give them a shot.

[goinssonya9]

I didn’t expect much from WholeEarthGifts when I first ordered their free samples. Mainly because they also sell other brands that I feel are of inferior quality. But I was pleasantly surprised. The samples seemed very fresh and “above average” in quality. For what it’s worth, they source from GMP vendors and have Mitra levels indicated on the bags. Even the small 10 gram samples had Mitra levels indicated.

However, I do wonder if their larger size bags are the same batches as what’s in their samples. I’m sure many of us have experienced the “good samples” phenomenon where your larger order is “not so good”. Often times appearing to be completely different kratom.

If in fact their samples are the same kratom batches that are in their larger bags, they are definitely worth giving a try. It looks like they are running a 30% off sale too. Four way split Kilos are $69 instead of $99 and shipping appears to be free, regardless of the size of your order. I recall the White MD and Green Borneo being quite good.

So with that being said would you say it is safe if I like the samples I get to order smaller quantities of the batches/strains I like? That’s a good price on a kilo.

I liked their samples and then ordered a split kilo. Seems to be the same good quality to me.

[IndelibleDotInk]

They offered free samples but did not put enough postage, cost me $3.74, they put only $0.71 on the envelope??

Two 10g samples of gold borneo and pure gold, professionally and beautifully packaged squares with printed QR code, nutrition facts, mitra%, etc.

[blueeyes0602]

I tried to order a sample (I was even paying for shipping), but their website froze. I refreshed, submitted my order, and was told my order was cancelled. I tried to resubmit, but the page froze again! I submitted yet again, and was told again that my order had been cancelled. I'm guessing that it thought I'd already ordered, even though the first time I never hit Submit? They only allow one sample order per address and per IP. IDK, but it's beyond frustrating. Probably not worth any more effort on my part.

[IndelibleDotInk]

I tried to order a sample (I was even paying for shipping), but their website froze. I refreshed, submitted my order, and was told my order was cancelled. I tried to resubmit, but the page froze again! I submitted yet again, and was told again that my order had been cancelled. I'm guessing that it thought I'd already ordered, even though the first time I never hit Submit? They only allow one sample order per address and per IP. IDK, but it's beyond frustrating. Probably not worth any more effort on my part.

Send them an email or if they have a contact page with forms? I emailed them.

[WhiteAngelica]

Hey there Double M,
So I have been lurking on here for a good month now and feel I have read all I can and that it’s time for me to make a post… I’ve definitely taken a lot of recommendations I’ve found on here and ran with them. I’m currently waiting on an order from Brees, and STH and will post my review when I have them in hand.

In other news… I stumbled upon a vendor on MeWe I haven’t seen talked about here before. (May be for good reason, we’ll have to see.) and they are offering completely free samples. wholeearthgifts.com. It appears they do resell some of the bigger name bulk Kratom brands BUT their samples are of their house imported powder…

So this may be something may be nothing but I could never turn down free samples… could I? Anyway here’s to my first post and to many more! Thank you for all the info you all have compiled. I am simply addicted to reading this forum.

Thanks for this info! I've given a look or two at the site, and it seems a bit hard to differentiate between the brands they sell, and the 'house' brand, if that is what constitutes the samples. I happily reserve judgement until I try said samples, but the items for sale on the site have the same look of--same type of packaging and marketing appearance--as what I clearly recognize as headshop.

Headship kratom scares me because it is, at its best, overpriced and of underwhelming quality. At its worst, and this is where I grow wary, it's using packaging and marketing to basically advertise a 'legal high.'

I actually went into a headshop last week for a lighter for my sage and insense. I saw a few things--you know, the synthetic marijuana that drives people crazy or kills them, and something in a bottle literally called Adderral XL (what the hell is in that?) And various other bottles full of promises and mystery dust. There was kratom, of course...the most expensive ever. Some were packaged like, 'hello. I'm Red MD. You can buy me, and I won't kill you, but you'll need to eat half of this 50$ bottle to feel any effect at all' and the kind of kratom that looks like it's having WAY too much fun with itself, like party in a bag, big neon kid fonts, extract, extract everywhere. Mediocrity doesn't terrify me, but that shit does.

I'm not saying the other products here are of the latter head shoppy genre I just discussed, but the appearance of some of these items match the headshop aesthetic I've seen. (I looked up the Adderral XL headship product and it was on a site that looks like an inventory catalog from any sketchy smoke shop from anytown, USA).

The samples are guaranteed to be a particular house brand and not enhanced? I might just wait for your reviews on this. Thank you for the heads up because I LOVE samples and sampler packs. Often vendors do not sell sampler packs any more, and so it's a commitment to try something new (and hard, since we each have vendors we know and love--but I'm always interested in diversifying. It's easy to get stuck in old ways and then miss out on something special because of being a curmudgeon like me.)

[Fallguy]

You actually recently saw "synthetic marijuana that drives people crazy or kills them" being sold in a head shop. Could it maybe have been overpriced cbd/cbg flower, that can be very pleasant, relaxing, and mellow? I only ask because misinformation has the same effect on the hemp/cannabis industry as it has on the kratom industry.

[Sanbutsushin]

Hey there Double M,
So I have been lurking on here for a good month now and feel I have read all I can and that it’s time for me to make a post… I’ve definitely taken a lot of recommendations I’ve found on here and ran with them. I’m currently waiting on an order from Brees, and STH and will post my review when I have them in hand.

In other news… I stumbled upon a vendor on MeWe I haven’t seen talked about here before. (May be for good reason, we’ll have to see.) and they are offering completely free samples. wholeearthgifts.com. It appears they do resell some of the bigger name bulk Kratom brands BUT their samples are of their house imported powder…

So this may be something may be nothing but I could never turn down free samples… could I? Anyway here’s to my first post and to many more! Thank you for all the info you all have compiled. I am simply addicted to reading this forum.

[...] the kind of kratom that looks like it's having WAY too much fun with itself, like party in a bag, big neon kid fonts, extract, extract everywhere. Mediocrity doesn't terrify me, but that shit does.

I'm not saying the other products here are of the latter head shoppy genre I just discussed, but the appearance of some of these items match the headshop aesthetic I've seen. (I looked up the Adderral XL headship product and it was on a site that looks like an inventory catalog from any sketchy smoke shop from anytown, USA).

That anyone is trying to package and sell fake pseudo-adderall is so awful. Predatory and misleading, especially because running a search for it will kick back info on the actual medication in its extended release form. I'd say shame on the company that's behind it but sadly I'm sure it was intentional and they don't feel any shame at all. The big neon kid font headshop stuff scares me too, because there's a fine line between an aesthetic and straight-up marketing to kids.

Back to Whole Earth though, can anyone chime in with clarification from the vendor themselves? There are a handful of different brands represented in their store and I'm not really sure how to distinguish what's "theirs" and what's from another company. I wonder if they would be open to questions too, because why should any store need to sell multiple brands on top of their own imports? Maybe I'm being too cynical...

(edited to snip the quote for length)

[goinssonya9]

Only the one called Whole Earth is their actual brand. And its actually very good.

[Sanbutsushin]

Only the one called Whole Earth is their actual brand. And its actually very good.

That's good to hear! And thanks for the brand clarification too.

I tried to shoot them an email earlier today but my provider was having issues. I'll have to see if I can find them on Mewe.

ETA: Ooh, their website says: "100% money-back guarantee. If you don't absolutely love it, just send it back for a refund, exchange, or store credit." That's a positive sign imo.

[Vipercuda69]

Only the one called Whole Earth is their actual brand. And its actually very good.

That’s the one. Whole Earth and it was quite good. Professionally packaged. Mitra and 7HM levels clearly marked. I only wonder if a larger order would be from the same batch as the samples, if bought relatively quickly after trying the samples. Or if it’s the typical bait and switch with good samples and bunk larger sizes. I’ve experienced that many times unfortunately.

[CoopC42]

So I got my samples the beginning of this week and was super excited to try… as others have said it was professionally packaged . Mitra and 7ohm % clearly marked. They sent me “Green Borneo” and “Pure Gold” the Green Borneo was fantastic. Very relaxing IMO and knocked the pain from a 10hr day of plumbing and sub-flooring right out. Pretty sure I fell asleep with a smile on my face sitting up in bed lol. The Pure Gold was mild but I always feel that way about golds. I’ve never taken one and been completely satisfied. Maybe I need to take more with them not really sure. Not that it was bad just more subtle. All in all though I am definitely considering ordering more of the Green Borneo hopefully it comes from the same batch. I would definitely recommend trying their samples though cause no matter what, it’s free Kratom…. I mean come on!

[goinssonya9]

Only the one called Whole Earth is their actual brand. And its actually very good.

That’s the one. Whole Earth and it was quite good. Professionally packaged. Mitra and 7HM levels clearly marked. I only wonder if a larger order would be from the same batch as the samples, if bought relatively quickly after trying the samples. Or if it’s the typical bait and switch with good samples and bunk larger sizes. I’ve experienced that many times unfortunately.

I got their samples back in April and loved them. I've ordered half a dozen or so times since then and always happy with it. Plus they have money back guarantee, so there's not really much risk involved.

Their Gold is really good for pain. I have a stash of it put away just for really bad pain days. My brother loves their Green Borneo, but I ordered some gold for him and had them shipped to him and he loved it. He has several severe chronic pain conditions and he said the gold was great for pain, too.

Have a blessed day!!

[Sanbutsushin]

Ahhh of course I learn the gold is good for pain, after requesting red and white samples Looking forward to trying them regardless!

[StringThing]

So I got my samples the beginning of this week and was super excited to try… as others have said it was professionally packaged . Mitra and 7ohm % clearly marked. They sent me “Green Borneo” and “Pure Gold” the Green Borneo was fantastic. Very relaxing IMO and knocked the pain from a 10hr day of plumbing and sub-flooring right out. Pretty sure I fell asleep with a smile on my face sitting up in bed lol. The Pure Gold was mild but I always feel that way about golds. I’ve never taken one and been completely satisfied. Maybe I need to take more with them not really sure. Not that it was bad just more subtle. All in all though I am definitely considering ordering more of the Green Borneo hopefully it comes from the same batch. I would definitely recommend trying their samples though cause no matter what, it’s free Kratom…. I mean come on!

Alkaloid % is very cool. I've been buying kratom for a while and I rarely see those numbers advertised. I have no idea what percentage most of the stuff I've had is.

[Sanbutsushin]

I talked to the vendor briefly and was told that Red Bali is so named because it comes from Bali, and that the suppliers all separate the leaves by the colors of the veins. I think Treasure House also maintains that this is the case, even though we've heard from multiple other vendors on here like TFH's Chris that this isn't what really happens over in Indonesia (and that Bali strains probably don't actually come from Bali). Not sure how I feel about that, but if the leaf is good then the leaf is good. I just wish all vendors could get on the same page about this stuff so there's minimal confusion, lol. [insert Oprah "what is the truth" gif here] - Excited to see everyone's feedback on those samples regardless. Still kicking myself for missing that the Gold is good for pain! I might have to go back and grab some.

[Fallguy]

I talked to the vendor briefly and was told that Red Bali is so named because it comes from Bali, and that the suppliers all separate the leaves by the colors of the veins. I think Treasure House also maintains that this is the case, even though we've heard from multiple other vendors on here like TFH's Chris that this isn't what really happens over in Indonesia (and that Bali strains probably don't actually come from Bali). Not sure how I feel about that, but if the leaf is good then the leaf is good. I just wish all vendors could get on the same page about this stuff so there's minimal confusion, lol. [insert Oprah "what is the truth" gif here] - Excited to see everyone's feedback on those samples regardless. Still kicking myself for missing that the Gold is good for pain! I might have to go back and grab some.

Balz where are you. They are actually separating leaves by vein color. If they are hand washing each individual leaf this might be doable.

[CatfatherB]

I talked to the vendor briefly and was told that Red Bali is so named because it comes from Bali, and that the suppliers all separate the leaves by the colors of the veins. I think Treasure House also maintains that this is the case, even though we've heard from multiple other vendors on here like TFH's Chris that this isn't what really happens over in Indonesia (and that Bali strains probably don't actually come from Bali). Not sure how I feel about that, but if the leaf is good then the leaf is good. I just wish all vendors could get on the same page about this stuff so there's minimal confusion, lol. [insert Oprah "what is the truth" gif here] - Excited to see everyone's feedback on those samples regardless. Still kicking myself for missing that the Gold is good for pain! I might have to go back and grab some.

Balz where are you. They are actually separating leaves by vein color. If they are hand washing each individual leaf this might be doable.

ya may get lucky having those leaves washed but aint nobody seperating by the vein colors!

[StringThing]

I talked to the vendor briefly and was told that Red Bali is so named because it comes from Bali, and that the suppliers all separate the leaves by the colors of the veins. I think Treasure House also maintains that this is the case, even though we've heard from multiple other vendors on here like TFH's Chris that this isn't what really happens over in Indonesia (and that Bali strains probably don't actually come from Bali). Not sure how I feel about that, but if the leaf is good then the leaf is good. I just wish all vendors could get on the same page about this stuff so there's minimal confusion, lol. [insert Oprah "what is the truth" gif here] - Excited to see everyone's feedback on those samples regardless. Still kicking myself for missing that the Gold is good for pain! I might have to go back and grab some.

Balz where are you. They are actually separating leaves by vein color. If they are hand washing each individual leaf this might be doable.

ya may get lucky having those leaves washed but aint nobody seperating by the vein colors!

You can tell when a batch has been separated or not. They don't pick through every leaf but they do choose which to cut down.

[Sanbutsushin]

We're going a bit off-topic but Texas Family Harvest has a few really informative posts regarding vein color. Here's the link to one of them.

In the linked post he says:

The truth is, 97% - 99% of the kratom that is imported into the United States are red-veined leaves. This is ture because there are only a very small number of white and green veins that even exists on most trees, somewhere around 1-3%. [...] when we tested the effects of separating leaves by vein color we saw zero noticeable effects (imagine that... just like the science says).

Most people including many vendors do not understand or acknowledge this very basic concept. I've come across plenty of folks who honorably defend their favorite vendor and let me know that their vendor really does separate out the leaves.... after all you can see it says so right on their website. I hate to be blunt about it but those vendors are either being dishonest or are very gullible.

Of course you can also easily choose to believe any of the other vendors who claims that leafs are in fact separated by vein color, just as anyone can choose to instead believe Chris. But Chris is known to be very very involved in every step of the process for his kratom, including taking trips to the farms themselves iirc, so I'm more inclined to believe what he's saying versus importers who might not have that same level of involvement and therefore might not know what's really happening beyond what their suppliers are telling them.

[Sanbutsushin]

My samples arrived and I tried them over the weekend. I said this in the "what are you burning" thread but the White MD was nothing special for me. Did the job. Average. Not bad, not especially good.

But the Red Bali just about knocked my socks off. It was potent stuff. I took my usual amount and it wasn't sedating but didn't give me the wobbles either as I'm told can happen when you take too much strong leaf (idk, I've not had this happen to me yet). It did a great job of killing my pain and stiffness to the point where I felt really... light almost? Maybe tough to explain to someone who doesn't have joint issues, but I could have danced around if I wanted to. And I did want to, but we don't really have the space for it, lol.

If I weren't on a buying moratorium at the moment I'd be sorely tempted to go back and order a bag. If anyone who's ordered from Whole Earth can verify that their larger amounts are the same leaf as they send out in samples (a problem that occurs with vendors sometimes as mentioned upthread) I'd be interested to know! I'm still surprised at how good it was. I try to keep expectations low wherever possible to head off disappointment, and the White MD was just meh, but that Red Bali? Good stuff.

[CatfatherB]

My samples arrived and I tried them over the weekend. I said this in the "what are you burning" thread but the White MD was nothing special for me. Did the job. Average. Not bad, not especially good.

But the Red Bali just about knocked my socks off. It was potent stuff. I took my usual amount and it wasn't sedating but didn't give me the wobbles either as I'm told can happen when you take too much strong leaf (idk, I've not had this happen to me yet). It did a great job of killing my pain and stiffness to the point where I felt really... light almost? Maybe tough to explain to someone who doesn't have joint issues, but I could have danced around if I wanted to. And I did want to, but we don't really have the space for it, lol.

If I weren't on a buying moratorium at the moment I'd be sorely tempted to go back and order a bag. If anyone who's ordered from Whole Earth can verify that their larger amounts are the same leaf as they send out in samples (a problem that occurs with vendors sometimes as mentioned upthread) I'd be interested to know! I'm still surprised at how good it was. I try to keep expectations low wherever possible to head off disappointment, and the White MD was just meh, but that Red Bali? Good stuff.

what color was that red Bali?

[Sassysquatch]

I got the Red Bali and the White MD samples. I echo what Sanbutsuchin wrote - the red was awesome but the white was just meh.

Goinsonya9 has a sampler in the trading post that includes this vendor. Since she bought more in larger quantity you could try hers, if it’s still available. I traded with her and got the Red Bali and it was just as good as the sample from the vendor.

[Sanbutsushin]

what color was that red Bali?

It's reddish/brownish. I would ask the vendor if it's fermented or oxidized or what, but after the "Red Bali comes from Bali" email I don't know that I'd get a proper answer. It looks very similar to fermented reds I've gotten from other vendors in the past though.

And @Sassysquatch (is @ing people a thing on DoubleM?) - thanks for the heads up!! Glad to hear it.

[CatfatherB]

what color was that red Bali?

It's reddish/brownish. I would ask the vendor if it's fermented or oxidized or what, but after the "Red Bali comes from Bali" email I don't know that I'd get a proper answer.

ahhh, one of those Bali Bali's aye? gotcha...

[wavering_radiant]

Moon Kratom is also offering completely free samples. They’re an old school vendor that I always wanted to try since a few years back so I’m kind of excited I just received my samples today. Haven’t tried any of them yet, but they sent me white Borneo, Red Indo and Maeng Da. Should’ve requested a green since that’s mostly all I take but maybe the MD is their GMD. It looks like they have that kind of old school Kratom look if you know what I mean. Hopefully it’s not just old Kratom lol. I will report back after I try them out. Here’s the link for anyone interested…
https://moonkratom.com/samples/

[BallzDeep9]

... any of the other vendors who claims that leafs are in fact separated by vein color, just as anyone can choose to instead believe

What ?? Its 2021. I thought we'd already learned a few things, by now? Good grief. Any "vendor" who is still pushing the fake marketing stuff... is either knowingly spreading BS (Liar) or / hasn't got a clue about what they're selling ? Either way, avoid!! - For any noobs who wanna get up-to-speed... there's a good Reddit post from a couple years ago: LINK - The Truth On Strains and Production Personally Witnessed

Reddit r/kratom is now basically a read-only Forum, since around 95% of Topics get blocked, deleted, and censored.... Still, it's a resource, LINK above is one example:

Quote -- All of the leaves are harvested from the same trees. ALL OF THEM. Nobody is separating leaves per order - You should see the trucks packed with leaves, they're all the same. They sell thousands of tons, and nobody is separating leaves because they have 'Horns' or are big or small or different colored. They're all from the same tree!!!

[Sanbutsushin]

100%. There's evidence to support accounts where leaves are not separated by vein color, and there aren't special types of trees that only grow in certain locations, etc. And it did weird me out a bit that I was either being lied to or Whole Earth doesn't know what's happening on the farms they're getting their stuff from. But it seems like there are lots of people who really want to believe the myths even when presented with evidence to the contrary, for whatever reason.

It's impossible to have any meaningful discussion about kratom at all on reddit, not just because so much gets deleted but because there's misinformation in every other comment, so much so that no one can even begin to correct it all. I want people to know the truth about what they're consuming but posts like the one linked above get flat-out ignored over there... which makes it even more alarming because this is a thing you're putting in your body, wouldn't you want to know more about it? Apparently for some people the answer is no.

[gumbyke1]

100%. There's evidence to support accounts where leaves are not separated by vein color, and there aren't special types of trees that only grow in certain locations, etc. And it did weird me out a bit that I was either being lied to or Whole Earth doesn't know what's happening on the farms they're getting their stuff from. But it seems like there are lots of people who really want to believe the myths even when presented with evidence to the contrary, for whatever reason.

It's impossible to have any meaningful discussion about kratom at all on reddit, not just because so much gets deleted but because there's misinformation in every other comment, so much so that no one can even begin to correct it all. I want people to know the truth about what they're consuming but posts like the one linked above get flat-out ignored over there... which makes it even more alarming because this is a thing you're putting in your body, wouldn't you want to know more about it? Apparently for some people the answer is no.

I can tell you with certainty that there is NOBODY who is separating out leaves by "vein colors". The suggestion that kratom farmers somewhere are sorting leaves by the color of the veins is absurd to anyone who actually deals in the industry. Sure an Indo farmer will tell you they are seperating them, they might even send you a few pictures of piles of leaves to prove it *wink wink*. However, over dinner, they are going to laugh their butts off telling their family that they convinced some American buyer that they separate out leaves by the color of their stem. I'm not necessarily saying that a vendor who claimed they are is intentionally misleading people, they probably are genuinely convinced that the kratom they are receiving is separated.

You may ask how I can be so certain.... isn't there possibly somebody out there who is going that extra mile to do it? Of course that is always possible, I cant pretend to know what every single person is doing. After all labor in Indonesia is cheap... we have done much crazier things in search of a magic recipe then separating leaves. However, the reason I am so certain that nobody is doing is it because we have actually have done it, several times, and each time was a completely pointless endevour. The reality is there is nothing to gain from sorting leaves - the idea is nothing more than an old kratom fairly tale. Anyone vendor who is investing the extra labor and effort to truly source sorted leaves will quickly realize there is no point... there is no reason somebody who actually tries it would continue.

I just wrote a post that touches on this last night. I should have made it a new thread because it got crazy long, lol. Illl paste it below because it fits here nicely.

By the way to point of this post (and what drew me hear) was somebody was asking about free samples, but I wanted to chime in on the whole separating stem veins thing. However, if anyone is interested in samples, we are currently in the middle of a major round of consumer testing. If you would like to apply as product tester, just shoot us an email for some free samples. We just ask that in exchange you agree to complete a private online survey for each sample tested and cover the cost of shipping ($8). If you are interested, email us at [email protected] and include your screen name and the words "Product Tester" in the subject line. Thanks!


OTHER POST BELOW:


Kudos to the original poster – using the word “strain” is something that I have been silently protesting for years. You’ve touched on something that drives me nuts -without a doubt this will result in me typing on the keyboard for hours, lol. I’ve been intentionally calling them “batches” for a few years now and when I do use the word “strain” I’m pretty sure I always put the word in quotes because I don’t accept its current use. I’m not always sure people understand why I avoid the word “strain”, but I do know it sometimes causes confusion when I am interacting with others. I would highly encourage everyone to switch to the word “batch”. This will allow people like me to have more sanity, but more importantly it will draw attention to why there was a change in terminology to begin with (leading to people becoming educated on what a “strain” is and isn’t). I mean the word “strain” is so misleading to newcomers because it implies that there is some kind of standardization in the industry.

Batch names (which I will try to call “strains” for the sake of clarity on this post) with batch codes are very helpful for the purpose of identifying batches that you liked from a vendor and would like to order more of. However, in the current state of the industry, that is just about all there is to gain from the name on a menu (there are some vendor-specific exceptions.) The original poster described how this could be different if there were people working on ways to improve kratom similarly to the cannabis industry – I assure you there are some serious efforts under way!!!

Until then, I always recommend that consumers should consider a new batch of any “strain” as if they were not related at all… Its just a name. In fact just this morning (at the time of me starting to write this) I had a customer request a 1kg of a “strain” that we just added to the menu because they loved last years version of it so much. As you can see, I discouraged this and made the recommendation that they make a smaller order to test it out first.



Kratom is just like people - just because two people share the same name, doesn’t mean they are going to be similar people. Although a silly comparison, but its absolutely true for two primary reasons:

1. The vast, vast, majority of vendors have zero idea of where the products they import actually come from. This is of course is one of the things that makes kratom vending a stressful profession. I’m sure everyone has experienced the displeasure of ordering a kilogram and being very disappointed with what arrived. Now imagine how that feels if you ordered 50-1000kg’s … yeah it can be brutal, lol. Even the vendors who genuinely believe they know everything about the origins of their kratom – I am telling you…. they most likely really don’t. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the supply chain, even some of the most “plugged in” vendors who think they are above the fray are still sold a boat of lies (I would be a fool to think we have not bought that boat several times). A lot of kratom is sold to US vendors by middlemen who might not even physically see the kratom they sell. And even if the exporter is actually involved with production, they are often just buying dried leaves in bulk from another middleman and milling them into different shared of powder. In most cases (again, not all) "strain names" are just randomly assigned to batches in the storehouses of kratom exporters as they are being boxes up for export. One exception of course to the randomness is if the exporter has an order for specific strains – then whatever “strains” were ordered are the names that will be assigned. Unfortunately, this is just how much of the industry is - unless you actually have boots on the ground support to help you with sourcing, you are really at the mercy of whatever you are told. I want to add that none of this is a knock on how vendors source their products, not knowing the actual origins of a product doesn’t mean you don’t know how to get great product. After all, if the product is safe, clean, and high quality, does its true origins really matter? I wouldn’t have a clue on how to pick a good ranch to buy cattle from, but I do know that if I pick up a pack of porterhouse steaks from Kroger that they are going to be dang tasty nearly every time!

2. What about those vendors who do actually know the source of their products - well again, they most likely actually don’t, lol. But if they did - is there a lot to be gained by the consumer from accurate “strain names”? The answer to that is there might be some slight advantages – but for the most part it’s not nearly as helpful as you would think. A primary reason for this is that there is zero standardization of "strains" in the kratom industry.... a "Green Bali" from vendor A is nothing like a "Green Bali" from vendor B. Also, there is no such thing as this “X” type of “strain” usually has “Y” kind of characteristics. It is true that environmental conditions can heavily influence the overall alkaloid profile of a batch, but few of those conditions are “region specific”. In fact, you can have many varieties of different “alkaloid profiles” on the same plot of land (not that most farmers are leveraging this fact in any way). We sometimes carry multiple batches from the same general plot of land, and not one of them is the same (trust me - I obsess over menu construction... if they were the same we would not even consider carrying them).

Further, even if you only buy from a single vendor, that vendor's Green Bali from March is not going to not be the same thing as their next batch of Green Bali in May (assuming they are different batches... check those batch codes). There may be similarities, but not enough for you to go all in and say, “I really liked the last Green Bali, so I’m going to go ahead and order 2 kilograms of the new Green Bali”.

Again, I have to refer to point one above. It is difficult (but not impossible) to know with certainty that you are getting product from the same group of trees or even the same farm. If a vendor is buying from a skilled and trusted supplier, they may have be able to reliably get the same “grade” of product as their last shipment (there is such a thing as kratom grades), but it doesn’t necessarily mean it will be from the same source. Even when a vendor is buying directly from a farmer, they are not always getting that farmers product (which might be a good thing… more on why that is later). There will be times that farmer doesn’t have any product ready and ir/when that occurs, the farmer will just buy raw leaves from another farmer before turning his US customer away. Kratom is just a commodity, its bought/sold in Indonesia just like corn is here. If a corn farmer just sold his entire harvest and some dummy on the other side of the world is willing to pay 10x the price for corn, that farmer is just going to buy corn off his neighbor and resell it for a nice profit.

Here is the kicker though – almost all of the above doesn’t really matter to begin with. Even if a vendor does acquire a batch that was harvested from the same exact trees and they accounted for all post-harvest processing variables (which is extremely difficult), it's most likely going to be an entirely different batch. We have gone to great extremes to try and replicate batches with varying degrees of success. In some cases, it might be similar or close (depending on the individual), but you should never expect that it will be just like the last batch. The analogy I used earlier in this post applies here too. Anyone who is a parent of more than one child can tell you that kids from the same set of parents are NOT the same. They may have some similarities, but even twins can have radically different personalities. The reality of the matter just a few weeks is enough time for a tree's alkaloid profile to change – sometimes radically. There are just so many environmental conditions that alter the tree’s production of secondary metabolites. Various genetic, ontogenic, morphogenetic and environmental factors can influence the biosynthesis and accumulation of secondary metabolites (the alkaloids we look for). Secondary metabolite accumulation is strongly dependent on a variety of environmental factors such as photoperiod, light intensity, temperature, soil water, soil fertility and salinity, and many others I am not going to share here. Further a single factor may alter the content of secondary metabolites even if all of the other factors remain fairly constant. As you can imagine, some of these can be controlled to a certain extent, but many of them can’t in a practical manner… sometimes the best time to harvest is a matter of timing. Even with a concerted effort to manipulate the pre-harvest variables (which no farmer is going to do on their own accord), it’s extremely difficult to replicate a specific batch month apart (sometimes you can get close though).

Speaking of getting close, check out the email I received 2 days ago from a tester. He had recently tested a genericly labeled sample and was able tell it's our Deep Jungle source based by comparying the flavor to the previous version (which we haven't offered in almost a year and a half now). Wow!




Despite the annoying fact of not being able to recreate previous versions, I personally view these changes as a blessing, because it gives the consumer more variety and combats SSS (same “strain” syndrome). In my experience, I have never seen a consecutive batch that was so close to the previous batch that there was an issue with cross-tolerance in regards to SSS. This means if you bought our 2020 version of 30 Year Wild Red TFH, even though the 2021 version comes from the same exact trees it is going to be an entirely different "strain" (both have a permanent spot in my rotation).

I mean even if you don’t know anything about kratom production – a little critical thinking will go a long way to back up what I’m saying. Kratom varies batch to batch just the same way a lot of other agricultural products do. Just because last time you went to the grocery store the green grapes were sour, doesn’t mean that the next batch of green grapes is going to be the same (even if they do come from the safe farm). You wouldn’t ever go to the store and say that last batch of green grapes were the best ever, so I’m going to go ahead and buy 4 bags now because they are just that good. Now, take that principal and apply it to kratom times 10 because kratom is an industry in its infancy. I have no doubt that with time the quality and consistency between kratom batches will improve just as many agricultural products are incredibly consistent via genetic engineering and advanced farming (cotton candy grapes anyone?).

A lot has changed since we began our journey and when we started, we were basically amateur enthusiasts. By borrowing existing techniques from the tea industry, layering in old-fashioned trial, and the occasional consultation with botanists on reddit voila… we are doing something! A lot can be done quickly by people who are passionate (okay, obsessed) and determined, but I am really curious what could occur if you paired that with some serious funding and technical know-how. I mean imagine if a company like Lipton offered a kratom tea and got involved with kratom production – who knows where it could go (I’m not saying I would like to see a big commercial takeover of kratom – but I am curious as to what they would discover). Be a giant corporation or us little guys, I really do think we will soon reach a point where personal chemistry is the only obstacle a consumer will face while finding kratom works exceptionally well for them.

Speaking of the phenomenon I call "personal chemistry", I’d like to share my 2 cents. Its an incredibly relevant topic that I don’t see covered much (with the exception of an email here or there with members). I’ve been putting off post on it for a long time – I guess you can say its bit of a touchy subject for me.

Your personal body chemistry is a HUGE factor in how you experience a batch – there is just no way around that fact. Its importance is completely underestimated and misunderstood in our community. Sure, I hear mentions of it here and there, but it gets nowhere near the credence it deserves. As a consumer, I have been guilty of ignoring its importance for years - despite noticing antidotally that my own preferences would occasionally change (some batches I loved would begin to fall out of favor with me, and other batches I didn’t care for would suddenly earn a spot in my rotation). Truthfully, prior to being involved in our research I had really never given it that much thought. Now personal chemistry is the thing that keeps me up at night – no joke! It adds a whole other level of complexity to what otherwise should be a pretty black and white process of producing or finding the best kratom possible.

When we started our little kratom project, I thought wholeheartedly that if we could just discern exactly what makes “great” kratom that we could ensure every batch would be a home run for everyone… oh how naive I was, lol. Don’t get me wrong, starting with a quality product will ABSOLUTELY can increase your odds of finding a batch that works well for you… it makes a big difference. However, if you goal is to make every batch a home-run for every customer, producing an incredibly product is only like ¾ of the battle. You can make the best product in the world, but at the end of the day it’s only the “best” if the person consuming it agrees. If we do ever find a “solve” for obstacle that personal chemistry, it will change the whole industry and take the consumer experience to the next level. Currently there are semi-effective ways to account for personal chemistry with the implementation of preference profiling, but it requires a lot of data and is a very time-consuming process … its just really hard to implement practically to scale (I hope there is somebody out there smarter than I is working on it that disagrees, lol).

Seriously, the complications in our mission that are rooted in personal chemistry are vast I cannot even begin to explain how big of a pain in the rear it is when you are trying to do something as simple as trying to figure out if a batch of kratom is poor, average, good, or fantastic. Factoring for people’s different preferences, baselines, etc, make our consumer testing process like 10x’s more complicated than it would be without. Still, like any worthy nemesis, I have grown to have a healthy respect for the challenges it presents, and even an appreciation for the few advantages it provides us. A few interesting things about personal chemistry are:

1. Personal chemistry can completely dictate how you experience a batch. As if that weren’t enough, a person’s chemistry/preference can change…. sometimes wildly. We have all heard the stories about how people dug in the old “discard box” and discovered a powder that they are now in love with. Antidotal experiences are interesting, they are far from scientific evidence. What you need to draw a reliable conclusion is hard data… and we have that data. At first chemistry was not even on our radar to study, but it became apparent quickly that there is something major to it. Now we see it all the time that a person might a batch very low in consumer testing (sometimes multiple times), but down the road they unknowingly test the same sample again and promptly ask to purchase a kilogram of it, lol. (Literally one of our most trusted testers recently asked for 5kg of a “strain” that he gave very harsh scores to in consumer testing a few months ago). I have to say, although maddening, it is all quite entertaining, lol. What further complicates things is our bodies also experience “glitches in our chemistry matrix” its not uncommon for consumers to have brief periods of time where our bodies are completely out of whack and nothing will work well (due to things like the time of day, consumption schedule, something you ate, or maybe a minor virus that you are unknowingly battling, etc.) Sometimes our bodies are just primed to have a great kratom session, and sometimes we are not. With that said, If you ever feel that you got "bait and switched" by a vendor who sent out an amazing sample but when you ordered it it didn’t seem the same… I would recommend withholding judgment. If it came from a reputable vendor, the odds are it was you who switched, not the powder, lol.

2. Another thing that is very interesting is how people’s perception of a batch can change literally by the day. When testers unknowingly test the same batch multiple times, we can often observe a great fluctuation of overall quality scores. More often, scores will start high and then they will gradually decrease the more times they test the same batch (this probably doesn’t surprise some of you out there). However, there are also some rare birds out there who tend to like batches more each time they try it. We have done many blind tests to study how continued use of the same batch affects its overall quality score by sending the same batch under different names, sometimes all at once, and sometimes months apart. Most of the time what we see is people will be more generous with their scoring the very first time they sample a batch. With these people, consecutive uses of the same batch will most often result in lower scores each time - and for some people it's a one and done (they score the first time very high, and then every score after that is very low). On the flip side (and less frequently) there are times where people start out not appreciating a batch, but over time come to appreciate it more. We don’t exactly know what the cause of these different behaviors are, because they are not even always consistent to the individual.

*As a side note – I had mentioned that there are some things that I appreciate about personal chemistry as a vendor – the phenomenon I describe above is one of them. Understanding how repeated use of the same batch influences perceived quality is extremely helpful for us as a vendor, especially whenever we are working with a supplier in which we don’t have direct oversight of production. Unfortunately, it’s VERY common for Indonesian suppliers to make 10-20 “strains” from a single harvest of leaves (by blending different ratios of red and green leaves). The end results are that a US vendor can order 10-15 “strains” from a supplier and what they are actually getting is a bunch of blends of the same leaf (sometimes the Indo suppliers don’t even try that hard and will just write different names on the same exact blend). This happens all the time – its super common and a lot of vendors are completely oblivious to it. I’d be willing to bet that almost everyone on this forum has bought several different “strains” from a vendor that were nothing more than a blend of the same leaf – and not because the vendor intentionally sold it that way. Again – it’s very difficult for a vendor to know what they are actually getting unless they are well connected. Thankfully, there are things vendors can do to account for this problem (assuming they are aware of it), and if they are vigilant, they can eliminate it completely. A lot can be accomplished by simply having supply chain checks in place to oversee production on the Indonesian side of things. However, there are also things that can be done here in the states to identify those type of problems. For example - it stands out like a sour thumb in consumer testing whenever a source tries to pass “blends” as unique “strains”. Because most people will score consecutive servings of the same batch lower, you can very reliably detect when people are testing batches that are similar in composition. It’s easy to set up a control group that only receives 1 random strain from a particular shipment, and then make sure a separate test group receives all 5 strains from that shipment. If the control group gives good scores, but the test group initially give high marks, and then it falls off – it’s a strong indication that the 5 “strains” from that one supplier is basically just 1 blend. This principal also has a variety of other applications – such as using to test if different pre/post-harvest techniques/manipulations developed a different/unique alkaloid profile, etc...

Perhaps the most interesting thing we have learned through consumer testing is something that absolutely blew my mind. I think a lot of people will have a hard time believing this fact – just a few years ago I would be in that boat. Consumer testing is very reliable when it comes to testing for the "overall quality" of a batch but that’s about it. In general, people tend to agree on what is poor, average, good, and great kratom, even though there are outliers. With a decent sample size of consumer testers to counter outlying opinions (at least 20 testers… preferably 40), you can statistically gauge the overall quality of a batch. It’s a FANTASTIC tool for weeding out batches, however, overall quality is about where the consensus will end because it's really kind of rare that you will get a consensus on where it sits on the "spectrum" or how long its "legs" are in blind testing (the blind part is important as humans we are very susceptible to the power of persuasion… more on that later). What's also interesting is even when gaining a strong consensus on quality, it’s nearly impossible to get a full consensus. We can be testing some of the best kratom on earth and there will always be a handful of folks who will score it poorly.

Personal chemistry results in some interesting conflicts for me as a vendor. I often get asked a lot of questions by customers that I cannot in good faith just give a simple answer to. Take for example the most common question I find in my inbox - "What are a few batches on the current menu that really stand out". I would say that might be a good question for a vendor who is known to have some “iffy” choices on the menu. Surely any vendor worth their weight in kratom should know which batches are performing well with consumers. If they are a reputable vendor, they should be able to give you a scoop on what’s “good”. (If they are not reputable, they might recommend batches that they are having a hard time selling just to get rid of). This question is a tough one for me – and how I usually respond is probably annoying to some people, lol. Here I am, literally with spreadsheets of data that detail each batches characteristics, like ratios, and overall quality scores and yet I can’t ever provide a concrete answer of “you will love X”. Because of the way we compile our menu, it's not as black and white as you would think. Once you weed out the poor and average batches, everything that qualifies for the menu ends up in a similarly narrow range of overall quality scores and acceptance ratio’s... it truly is difficult to point to a few batches as “standouts”. I certainly have my personal favorites, but I know that once a product is in that narrow upper range, personal chemistry is going to dictate to what degree you love the product. I still answer the question because I know its annoying for me to reply with “we don’t have any” - but who have asked will have probably noticed that I always preface my reply with “These are some of my personal favorites right now….”

Like any kratom enthusiast, I like to read reviews on the forum (especially when they are on our products). Something I never noticed as a consumer but I certainly do now is that with some of the more popular vendors, it appears that everyone has a different “favorite strain”. A good vendor will make sure that they have a quality lineup which will dramatically increase the odds that you will find favor with some of their offerings. Which strain becomes your favorite is likely a matter of your personal chemistry. Given that fact it's not surprising that so many different batches can be declared as "favorites".

The 2nd most common question I get is "What strains on the menu are more on the lower/upper end of the spectrum?" This is a question to which I am sure my answer frustrates people, lol. I know people just want me to point them to some menu items, but it's hard to do that in good conscious whenever I know there is hardly ever a consensus on spectrums. (I will usually point again to what I personally recommend). How people perceive a batch on the spectrum is wildly all over the place, it is exceedingly rare that we have a general consensus on spectrum scores.

To give some perspective on just how differently people perceive the effects of the same batch of kratom, I will share a few snippets of data with you. Below is some old survey data that I have handy because I have shared it tons of times in email as an example. I've' trimmed out much of the data for the sake of simplicity, but let's look at the first and last columns.








The first column is an "overall quality score" which is on a scale of 1-10 (1=poor, 5 = average/what most vendors offer, and 10 = some of the best kratom you have had this year). The batch shown below did qualify for the menu, you can see there is some general consensus on its overall quality score. However, you can notice that in true fashion, there are a good handful of folks that scored it very low. If this were not a "menu item" you could expect to see a general consensus of lower overall quality scores… you can really tell when a batch is not well received, lol.

The third column reflects where testers score the batch in regards to where it lands on the "the spectrum" (1=low, 2=high). I know most people would expect to see some commonality amongst scores here, but as you can see, everyone has a different take on it. Now you can add up all of the ratings and calculate the average (4.97ish) but that is a rather lazy and ineffective way of interpreting the data. An average of 4.97 sounds like the perfect definition of a "mid", but that doesn't really reflect the experiences of the testers (just as an overall quality score average only tells half the story). If you look at the ratio of how many people scored it below a 3 or above a 7, it paints a different picture. This trend repeats no matter how we sort/filter the data – even when trying to account to consumption habits, the spectrum results still vary the majority of the time.

Now this doesn’t mean that there is never a spectrum consensus of a batch. There are times where we see it, even in blind testing. In those cases we will be very intentional with the name we give the batch to ensure it’s a descriptor that fits it well (Lazy Sundae, Blast off Bali, Afterburner Bali, etc...).

Notice in the above paragraph I said “in blind testing”, with an emphasis on “blind”. This is because we do see spectrum consensus more often whenever the tester believes they know what they are testing. When they don’t know the “vein color” of a batch or better yet, if they are misled on the “vein color” of a test sample its extremely rare to have a spectrum consensus. This is due to what I touched on briefly before and that is sadly, humans are very susceptible to the power of persuasion and/or confirming their beliefs. If you are told that you are testing a “white”, you are much more likely to notice “white characteristics” than if you were given no color assignment at all. To illustrate my point, check out the snapshot of consumer data below regarding two batches – Green 389 and White 389.




As you can see there is a variety of responses as to how each person experienced each batch. Looking at the data for Green 289, it would be hard to recommend to a person where on the spectrum it sits. One conclusion you can draw from the data however is that on average, the White 389 scored significantly faster than the Green 389… you might say this is on the higher end of the spectrum. The only problem is that in reality, both batches are scores from the same exact batch. We just labeled some samples as “green” and others as “white” in testing. This experiment repeats itself over and over again and as you might predict the differences in scoring become even more pronounced when we blind test a “red label” vs a “white label”. This doesn’t just apply to product testing - the same thing occurs when somebody announces on a review forum that “x” batch is incredibly “XYZ”. Based on that review, people will order it and be expecting that same experience. They then leave a review and the cycle continues, lol. I’m no behavioral phycologist… I don’t really know what this reality says about us. Do we just program our brains in advance to experience what we expect to experience, or do we really just do a very poor job of observing how kratom effects our bodies? I have to admit all of this was pretty astonishing to me when I first began our research. As a long-time consumer with my own preconceived notions, it was a very hard pill to swallow. If the data weren’t so abundantly clear, I would have a hard time believing it myself. In fact, early on I did all kinds of experiments to try and shoot holes in the data I was seeing. (accounting for testers serving size, grams per day, consumption experience, etc). Truthfully though – now that I know it, there are signs all around that have always pointed to this conclusion. Even with the echo chamber on review sites and forums, If you really pay attention to how people describe their experiences of any given batch, you will start to notice just how diverse our opinions can be.

This of course doesn’t mean that peer revies are a waste of time or even unreliable…. Just don’t take them as gospel. There is some real value when it comes to considering the overall the perceived quality of a batch, but I would recommend blindly going big on a batch just because somebody describes it with the characteristics that you love (unless you are priming yourself for the placebo effect - I suppose there is nothing wrong with that).

Finally, I mentioned that there are some situations in which “strain names” are relevant. Some vendors take the liberty or renaming the products to match the customers’ expectations. If I receive something as a “White Thai” that is more like a Relaxing Red – the name is getting changed. Also, we will often give names that are actual descriptors of their origin or technique applied during post-harvest processing. For example – our “30 Year Wild” batches really do come from wild trees where the youngest among them is estimated to be around 30 years old, Wild Hulu Kapuas are from wild trees along the Hulu Kapuas river, and our Lazy Sundae may lead to extremely low productivity, lol. Even with vendors such as ourselves, I will be the first to tell you that you still should not go by the name alone… not a single one of our “Balis” actually come from Bali (and neither does anyone else’s unless they picked it there while on vacation).

[kwest13]

gumbyke1 I just read every word. That's such an impressive amount of effort you put into this.

Even though I was aware of a lot of that already I am still:

[Sanbutsushin]

gumbyke1 I just read every word. That's such an impressive amount of effort you put into this.

Even though I was aware of a lot of that already I am still:

Same here! I really appreciate that he takes the time to explain things like this to us. If not for his posts, a lot of things would still be shrouded in mystery.

[fusedflora]

100%. There's evidence to support accounts where leaves are not separated by vein color, and there aren't special types of trees that only grow in certain locations, etc. And it did weird me out a bit that I was either being lied to or Whole Earth doesn't know what's happening on the farms they're getting their stuff from. But it seems like there are lots of people who really want to believe the myths even when presented with evidence to the contrary, for whatever reason.

It's impossible to have any meaningful discussion about kratom at all on reddit, not just because so much gets deleted but because there's misinformation in every other comment, so much so that no one can even begin to correct it all. I want people to know the truth about what they're consuming but posts like the one linked above get flat-out ignored over there... which makes it even more alarming because this is a thing you're putting in your body, wouldn't you want to know more about it? Apparently for some people the answer is no.

I can tell you with certainty that there is NOBODY who is separating out leaves by "vein colors". The suggestion that kratom farmers somewhere are sorting leaves by the color of the veins is absurd to anyone who actually deals in the industry. Sure an Indo farmer will tell you they are seperating them, they might even send you a few pictures of piles of leaves to prove it *wink wink*. However, over dinner, they are going to laugh their butts off telling their family that they convinced some American buyer that they separate out leaves by the color of their stem. I'm not necessarily saying that a vendor who claimed they are is intentionally misleading people, they probably are genuinely convinced that the kratom they are receiving is separated.

You may ask how I can be so certain.... isn't there possibly somebody out there who is going that extra mile to do it? Of course that is always possible, I cant pretend to know what every single person is doing. After all labor in Indonesia is cheap... we have done much crazier things in search of a magic recipe then separating leaves. However, the reason I am so certain that nobody is doing is it because we have actually have done it, several times, and each time was a completely pointless endevour. The reality is there is nothing to gain from sorting leaves - the idea is nothing more than an old kratom fairly tale. Anyone vendor who is investing the extra labor and effort to truly source sorted leaves will quickly realize there is no point... there is no reason somebody who actually tries it would continue.

I just wrote a post that touches on this last night. I should have made it a new thread because it got crazy long, lol. Illl paste it below because it fits here nicely.

By the way to point of this post (and what drew me hear) was somebody was asking about free samples, but I wanted to chime in on the whole separating stem veins thing. However, if anyone is interested in samples, we are currently in the middle of a major round of consumer testing. If you would like to apply as product tester, just shoot us an email for some free samples. We just ask that in exchange you agree to complete a private online survey for each sample tested and cover the cost of shipping ($8). If you are interested, email us at [email protected] and include your screen name and the words "Product Tester" in the subject line. Thanks!


OTHER POST BELOW:


Kudos to the original poster – using the word “strain” is something that I have been silently protesting for years. You’ve touched on something that drives me nuts -without a doubt this will result in me typing on the keyboard for hours, lol. I’ve been intentionally calling them “batches” for a few years now and when I do use the word “strain” I’m pretty sure I always put the word in quotes because I don’t accept its current use. I’m not always sure people understand why I avoid the word “strain”, but I do know it sometimes causes confusion when I am interacting with others. I would highly encourage everyone to switch to the word “batch”. This will allow people like me to have more sanity, but more importantly it will draw attention to why there was a change in terminology to begin with (leading to people becoming educated on what a “strain” is and isn’t). I mean the word “strain” is so misleading to newcomers because it implies that there is some kind of standardization in the industry.

Batch names (which I will try to call “strains” for the sake of clarity on this post) with batch codes are very helpful for the purpose of identifying batches that you liked from a vendor and would like to order more of. However, in the current state of the industry, that is just about all there is to gain from the name on a menu (there are some vendor-specific exceptions.) The original poster described how this could be different if there were people working on ways to improve kratom similarly to the cannabis industry – I assure you there are some serious efforts under way!!!

Until then, I always recommend that consumers should consider a new batch of any “strain” as if they were not related at all… Its just a name. In fact just this morning (at the time of me starting to write this) I had a customer request a 1kg of a “strain” that we just added to the menu because they loved last years version of it so much. As you can see, I discouraged this and made the recommendation that they make a smaller order to test it out first.



Kratom is just like people - just because two people share the same name, doesn’t mean they are going to be similar people. Although a silly comparison, but its absolutely true for two primary reasons:

1. The vast, vast, majority of vendors have zero idea of where the products they import actually come from. This is of course is one of the things that makes kratom vending a stressful profession. I’m sure everyone has experienced the displeasure of ordering a kilogram and being very disappointed with what arrived. Now imagine how that feels if you ordered 50-1000kg’s … yeah it can be brutal, lol. Even the vendors who genuinely believe they know everything about the origins of their kratom – I am telling you…. they most likely really don’t. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the supply chain, even some of the most “plugged in” vendors who think they are above the fray are still sold a boat of lies (I would be a fool to think we have not bought that boat several times). A lot of kratom is sold to US vendors by middlemen who might not even physically see the kratom they sell. And even if the exporter is actually involved with production, they are often just buying dried leaves in bulk from another middleman and milling them into different shared of powder. In most cases (again, not all) "strain names" are just randomly assigned to batches in the storehouses of kratom exporters as they are being boxes up for export. One exception of course to the randomness is if the exporter has an order for specific strains – then whatever “strains” were ordered are the names that will be assigned. Unfortunately, this is just how much of the industry is - unless you actually have boots on the ground support to help you with sourcing, you are really at the mercy of whatever you are told. I want to add that none of this is a knock on how vendors source their products, not knowing the actual origins of a product doesn’t mean you don’t know how to get great product. After all, if the product is safe, clean, and high quality, does its true origins really matter? I wouldn’t have a clue on how to pick a good ranch to buy cattle from, but I do know that if I pick up a pack of porterhouse steaks from Kroger that they are going to be dang tasty nearly every time!

2. What about those vendors who do actually know the source of their products - well again, they most likely actually don’t, lol. But if they did - is there a lot to be gained by the consumer from accurate “strain names”? The answer to that is there might be some slight advantages – but for the most part it’s not nearly as helpful as you would think. A primary reason for this is that there is zero standardization of "strains" in the kratom industry.... a "Green Bali" from vendor A is nothing like a "Green Bali" from vendor B. Also, there is no such thing as this “X” type of “strain” usually has “Y” kind of characteristics. It is true that environmental conditions can heavily influence the overall alkaloid profile of a batch, but few of those conditions are “region specific”. In fact, you can have many varieties of different “alkaloid profiles” on the same plot of land (not that most farmers are leveraging this fact in any way). We sometimes carry multiple batches from the same general plot of land, and not one of them is the same (trust me - I obsess over menu construction... if they were the same we would not even consider carrying them).

Further, even if you only buy from a single vendor, that vendor's Green Bali from March is not going to not be the same thing as their next batch of Green Bali in May (assuming they are different batches... check those batch codes). There may be similarities, but not enough for you to go all in and say, “I really liked the last Green Bali, so I’m going to go ahead and order 2 kilograms of the new Green Bali”.

Again, I have to refer to point one above. It is difficult (but not impossible) to know with certainty that you are getting product from the same group of trees or even the same farm. If a vendor is buying from a skilled and trusted supplier, they may have be able to reliably get the same “grade” of product as their last shipment (there is such a thing as kratom grades), but it doesn’t necessarily mean it will be from the same source. Even when a vendor is buying directly from a farmer, they are not always getting that farmers product (which might be a good thing… more on why that is later). There will be times that farmer doesn’t have any product ready and ir/when that occurs, the farmer will just buy raw leaves from another farmer before turning his US customer away. Kratom is just a commodity, its bought/sold in Indonesia just like corn is here. If a corn farmer just sold his entire harvest and some dummy on the other side of the world is willing to pay 10x the price for corn, that farmer is just going to buy corn off his neighbor and resell it for a nice profit.

Here is the kicker though – almost all of the above doesn’t really matter to begin with. Even if a vendor does acquire a batch that was harvested from the same exact trees and they accounted for all post-harvest processing variables (which is extremely difficult), it's most likely going to be an entirely different batch. We have gone to great extremes to try and replicate batches with varying degrees of success. In some cases, it might be similar or close (depending on the individual), but you should never expect that it will be just like the last batch. The analogy I used earlier in this post applies here too. Anyone who is a parent of more than one child can tell you that kids from the same set of parents are NOT the same. They may have some similarities, but even twins can have radically different personalities. The reality of the matter just a few weeks is enough time for a tree's alkaloid profile to change – sometimes radically. There are just so many environmental conditions that alter the tree’s production of secondary metabolites. Various genetic, ontogenic, morphogenetic and environmental factors can influence the biosynthesis and accumulation of secondary metabolites (the alkaloids we look for). Secondary metabolite accumulation is strongly dependent on a variety of environmental factors such as photoperiod, light intensity, temperature, soil water, soil fertility and salinity, and many others I am not going to share here. Further a single factor may alter the content of secondary metabolites even if all of the other factors remain fairly constant. As you can imagine, some of these can be controlled to a certain extent, but many of them can’t in a practical manner… sometimes the best time to harvest is a matter of timing. Even with a concerted effort to manipulate the pre-harvest variables (which no farmer is going to do on their own accord), it’s extremely difficult to replicate a specific batch month apart (sometimes you can get close though).

Speaking of getting close, check out the email I received 2 days ago from a tester. He had recently tested a genericly labeled sample and was able tell it's our Deep Jungle source based by comparying the flavor to the previous version (which we haven't offered in almost a year and a half now). Wow!




Despite the annoying fact of not being able to recreate previous versions, I personally view these changes as a blessing, because it gives the consumer more variety and combats SSS (same “strain” syndrome). In my experience, I have never seen a consecutive batch that was so close to the previous batch that there was an issue with cross-tolerance in regards to SSS. This means if you bought our 2020 version of 30 Year Wild Red TFH, even though the 2021 version comes from the same exact trees it is going to be an entirely different "strain" (both have a permanent spot in my rotation).

I mean even if you don’t know anything about kratom production – a little critical thinking will go a long way to back up what I’m saying. Kratom varies batch to batch just the same way a lot of other agricultural products do. Just because last time you went to the grocery store the green grapes were sour, doesn’t mean that the next batch of green grapes is going to be the same (even if they do come from the safe farm). You wouldn’t ever go to the store and say that last batch of green grapes were the best ever, so I’m going to go ahead and buy 4 bags now because they are just that good. Now, take that principal and apply it to kratom times 10 because kratom is an industry in its infancy. I have no doubt that with time the quality and consistency between kratom batches will improve just as many agricultural products are incredibly consistent via genetic engineering and advanced farming (cotton candy grapes anyone?).

A lot has changed since we began our journey and when we started, we were basically amateur enthusiasts. By borrowing existing techniques from the tea industry, layering in old-fashioned trial, and the occasional consultation with botanists on reddit voila… we are doing something! A lot can be done quickly by people who are passionate (okay, obsessed) and determined, but I am really curious what could occur if you paired that with some serious funding and technical know-how. I mean imagine if a company like Lipton offered a kratom tea and got involved with kratom production – who knows where it could go (I’m not saying I would like to see a big commercial takeover of kratom – but I am curious as to what they would discover). Be a giant corporation or us little guys, I really do think we will soon reach a point where personal chemistry is the only obstacle a consumer will face while finding kratom works exceptionally well for them.

Speaking of the phenomenon I call "personal chemistry", I’d like to share my 2 cents. Its an incredibly relevant topic that I don’t see covered much (with the exception of an email here or there with members). I’ve been putting off post on it for a long time – I guess you can say its bit of a touchy subject for me.

Your personal body chemistry is a HUGE factor in how you experience a batch – there is just no way around that fact. Its importance is completely underestimated and misunderstood in our community. Sure, I hear mentions of it here and there, but it gets nowhere near the credence it deserves. As a consumer, I have been guilty of ignoring its importance for years - despite noticing antidotally that my own preferences would occasionally change (some batches I loved would begin to fall out of favor with me, and other batches I didn’t care for would suddenly earn a spot in my rotation). Truthfully, prior to being involved in our research I had really never given it that much thought. Now personal chemistry is the thing that keeps me up at night – no joke! It adds a whole other level of complexity to what otherwise should be a pretty black and white process of producing or finding the best kratom possible.

When we started our little kratom project, I thought wholeheartedly that if we could just discern exactly what makes “great” kratom that we could ensure every batch would be a home run for everyone… oh how naive I was, lol. Don’t get me wrong, starting with a quality product will ABSOLUTELY can increase your odds of finding a batch that works well for you… it makes a big difference. However, if you goal is to make every batch a home-run for every customer, producing an incredibly product is only like ¾ of the battle. You can make the best product in the world, but at the end of the day it’s only the “best” if the person consuming it agrees. If we do ever find a “solve” for obstacle that personal chemistry, it will change the whole industry and take the consumer experience to the next level. Currently there are semi-effective ways to account for personal chemistry with the implementation of preference profiling, but it requires a lot of data and is a very time-consuming process … its just really hard to implement practically to scale (I hope there is somebody out there smarter than I is working on it that disagrees, lol).

Seriously, the complications in our mission that are rooted in personal chemistry are vast I cannot even begin to explain how big of a pain in the rear it is when you are trying to do something as simple as trying to figure out if a batch of kratom is poor, average, good, or fantastic. Factoring for people’s different preferences, baselines, etc, make our consumer testing process like 10x’s more complicated than it would be without. Still, like any worthy nemesis, I have grown to have a healthy respect for the challenges it presents, and even an appreciation for the few advantages it provides us. A few interesting things about personal chemistry are:

1. Personal chemistry can completely dictate how you experience a batch. As if that weren’t enough, a person’s chemistry/preference can change…. sometimes wildly. We have all heard the stories about how people dug in the old “discard box” and discovered a powder that they are now in love with. Antidotal experiences are interesting, they are far from scientific evidence. What you need to draw a reliable conclusion is hard data… and we have that data. At first chemistry was not even on our radar to study, but it became apparent quickly that there is something major to it. Now we see it all the time that a person might a batch very low in consumer testing (sometimes multiple times), but down the road they unknowingly test the same sample again and promptly ask to purchase a kilogram of it, lol. (Literally one of our most trusted testers recently asked for 5kg of a “strain” that he gave very harsh scores to in consumer testing a few months ago). I have to say, although maddening, it is all quite entertaining, lol. What further complicates things is our bodies also experience “glitches in our chemistry matrix” its not uncommon for consumers to have brief periods of time where our bodies are completely out of whack and nothing will work well (due to things like the time of day, consumption schedule, something you ate, or maybe a minor virus that you are unknowingly battling, etc.) Sometimes our bodies are just primed to have a great kratom session, and sometimes we are not. With that said, If you ever feel that you got "bait and switched" by a vendor who sent out an amazing sample but when you ordered it it didn’t seem the same… I would recommend withholding judgment. If it came from a reputable vendor, the odds are it was you who switched, not the powder, lol.

2. Another thing that is very interesting is how people’s perception of a batch can change literally by the day. When testers unknowingly test the same batch multiple times, we can often observe a great fluctuation of overall quality scores. More often, scores will start high and then they will gradually decrease the more times they test the same batch (this probably doesn’t surprise some of you out there). However, there are also some rare birds out there who tend to like batches more each time they try it. We have done many blind tests to study how continued use of the same batch affects its overall quality score by sending the same batch under different names, sometimes all at once, and sometimes months apart. Most of the time what we see is people will be more generous with their scoring the very first time they sample a batch. With these people, consecutive uses of the same batch will most often result in lower scores each time - and for some people it's a one and done (they score the first time very high, and then every score after that is very low). On the flip side (and less frequently) there are times where people start out not appreciating a batch, but over time come to appreciate it more. We don’t exactly know what the cause of these different behaviors are, because they are not even always consistent to the individual.

*As a side note – I had mentioned that there are some things that I appreciate about personal chemistry as a vendor – the phenomenon I describe above is one of them. Understanding how repeated use of the same batch influences perceived quality is extremely helpful for us as a vendor, especially whenever we are working with a supplier in which we don’t have direct oversight of production. Unfortunately, it’s VERY common for Indonesian suppliers to make 10-20 “strains” from a single harvest of leaves (by blending different ratios of red and green leaves). The end results are that a US vendor can order 10-15 “strains” from a supplier and what they are actually getting is a bunch of blends of the same leaf (sometimes the Indo suppliers don’t even try that hard and will just write different names on the same exact blend). This happens all the time – its super common and a lot of vendors are completely oblivious to it. I’d be willing to bet that almost everyone on this forum has bought several different “strains” from a vendor that were nothing more than a blend of the same leaf – and not because the vendor intentionally sold it that way. Again – it’s very difficult for a vendor to know what they are actually getting unless they are well connected. Thankfully, there are things vendors can do to account for this problem (assuming they are aware of it), and if they are vigilant, they can eliminate it completely. A lot can be accomplished by simply having supply chain checks in place to oversee production on the Indonesian side of things. However, there are also things that can be done here in the states to identify those type of problems. For example - it stands out like a sour thumb in consumer testing whenever a source tries to pass “blends” as unique “strains”. Because most people will score consecutive servings of the same batch lower, you can very reliably detect when people are testing batches that are similar in composition. It’s easy to set up a control group that only receives 1 random strain from a particular shipment, and then make sure a separate test group receives all 5 strains from that shipment. If the control group gives good scores, but the test group initially give high marks, and then it falls off – it’s a strong indication that the 5 “strains” from that one supplier is basically just 1 blend. This principal also has a variety of other applications – such as using to test if different pre/post-harvest techniques/manipulations developed a different/unique alkaloid profile, etc...

Perhaps the most interesting thing we have learned through consumer testing is something that absolutely blew my mind. I think a lot of people will have a hard time believing this fact – just a few years ago I would be in that boat. Consumer testing is very reliable when it comes to testing for the "overall quality" of a batch but that’s about it. In general, people tend to agree on what is poor, average, good, and great kratom, even though there are outliers. With a decent sample size of consumer testers to counter outlying opinions (at least 20 testers… preferably 40), you can statistically gauge the overall quality of a batch. It’s a FANTASTIC tool for weeding out batches, however, overall quality is about where the consensus will end because it's really kind of rare that you will get a consensus on where it sits on the "spectrum" or how long its "legs" are in blind testing (the blind part is important as humans we are very susceptible to the power of persuasion… more on that later). What's also interesting is even when gaining a strong consensus on quality, it’s nearly impossible to get a full consensus. We can be testing some of the best kratom on earth and there will always be a handful of folks who will score it poorly.

Personal chemistry results in some interesting conflicts for me as a vendor. I often get asked a lot of questions by customers that I cannot in good faith just give a simple answer to. Take for example the most common question I find in my inbox - "What are a few batches on the current menu that really stand out". I would say that might be a good question for a vendor who is known to have some “iffy” choices on the menu. Surely any vendor worth their weight in kratom should know which batches are performing well with consumers. If they are a reputable vendor, they should be able to give you a scoop on what’s “good”. (If they are not reputable, they might recommend batches that they are having a hard time selling just to get rid of). This question is a tough one for me – and how I usually respond is probably annoying to some people, lol. Here I am, literally with spreadsheets of data that detail each batches characteristics, like ratios, and overall quality scores and yet I can’t ever provide a concrete answer of “you will love X”. Because of the way we compile our menu, it's not as black and white as you would think. Once you weed out the poor and average batches, everything that qualifies for the menu ends up in a similarly narrow range of overall quality scores and acceptance ratio’s... it truly is difficult to point to a few batches as “standouts”. I certainly have my personal favorites, but I know that once a product is in that narrow upper range, personal chemistry is going to dictate to what degree you love the product. I still answer the question because I know its annoying for me to reply with “we don’t have any” - but who have asked will have probably noticed that I always preface my reply with “These are some of my personal favorites right now….”

Like any kratom enthusiast, I like to read reviews on the forum (especially when they are on our products). Something I never noticed as a consumer but I certainly do now is that with some of the more popular vendors, it appears that everyone has a different “favorite strain”. A good vendor will make sure that they have a quality lineup which will dramatically increase the odds that you will find favor with some of their offerings. Which strain becomes your favorite is likely a matter of your personal chemistry. Given that fact it's not surprising that so many different batches can be declared as "favorites".

The 2nd most common question I get is "What strains on the menu are more on the lower/upper end of the spectrum?" This is a question to which I am sure my answer frustrates people, lol. I know people just want me to point them to some menu items, but it's hard to do that in good conscious whenever I know there is hardly ever a consensus on spectrums. (I will usually point again to what I personally recommend). How people perceive a batch on the spectrum is wildly all over the place, it is exceedingly rare that we have a general consensus on spectrum scores.

To give some perspective on just how differently people perceive the effects of the same batch of kratom, I will share a few snippets of data with you. Below is some old survey data that I have handy because I have shared it tons of times in email as an example. I've' trimmed out much of the data for the sake of simplicity, but let's look at the first and last columns.








The first column is an "overall quality score" which is on a scale of 1-10 (1=poor, 5 = average/what most vendors offer, and 10 = some of the best kratom you have had this year). The batch shown below did qualify for the menu, you can see there is some general consensus on its overall quality score. However, you can notice that in true fashion, there are a good handful of folks that scored it very low. If this were not a "menu item" you could expect to see a general consensus of lower overall quality scores… you can really tell when a batch is not well received, lol.

The third column reflects where testers score the batch in regards to where it lands on the "the spectrum" (1=low, 2=high). I know most people would expect to see some commonality amongst scores here, but as you can see, everyone has a different take on it. Now you can add up all of the ratings and calculate the average (4.97ish) but that is a rather lazy and ineffective way of interpreting the data. An average of 4.97 sounds like the perfect definition of a "mid", but that doesn't really reflect the experiences of the testers (just as an overall quality score average only tells half the story). If you look at the ratio of how many people scored it below a 3 or above a 7, it paints a different picture. This trend repeats no matter how we sort/filter the data – even when trying to account to consumption habits, the spectrum results still vary the majority of the time.

Now this doesn’t mean that there is never a spectrum consensus of a batch. There are times where we see it, even in blind testing. In those cases we will be very intentional with the name we give the batch to ensure it’s a descriptor that fits it well (Lazy Sundae, Blast off Bali, Afterburner Bali, etc...).

Notice in the above paragraph I said “in blind testing”, with an emphasis on “blind”. This is because we do see spectrum consensus more often whenever the tester believes they know what they are testing. When they don’t know the “vein color” of a batch or better yet, if they are misled on the “vein color” of a test sample its extremely rare to have a spectrum consensus. This is due to what I touched on briefly before and that is sadly, humans are very susceptible to the power of persuasion and/or confirming their beliefs. If you are told that you are testing a “white”, you are much more likely to notice “white characteristics” than if you were given no color assignment at all. To illustrate my point, check out the snapshot of consumer data below regarding two batches – Green 389 and White 389.




As you can see there is a variety of responses as to how each person experienced each batch. Looking at the data for Green 289, it would be hard to recommend to a person where on the spectrum it sits. One conclusion you can draw from the data however is that on average, the White 389 scored significantly faster than the Green 389… you might say this is on the higher end of the spectrum. The only problem is that in reality, both batches are scores from the same exact batch. We just labeled some samples as “green” and others as “white” in testing. This experiment repeats itself over and over again and as you might predict the differences in scoring become even more pronounced when we blind test a “red label” vs a “white label”. This doesn’t just apply to product testing - the same thing occurs when somebody announces on a review forum that “x” batch is incredibly “XYZ”. Based on that review, people will order it and be expecting that same experience. They then leave a review and the cycle continues, lol. I’m no behavioral phycologist… I don’t really know what this reality says about us. Do we just program our brains in advance to experience what we expect to experience, or do we really just do a very poor job of observing how kratom effects our bodies? I have to admit all of this was pretty astonishing to me when I first began our research. As a long-time consumer with my own preconceived notions, it was a very hard pill to swallow. If the data weren’t so abundantly clear, I would have a hard time believing it myself. In fact, early on I did all kinds of experiments to try and shoot holes in the data I was seeing. (accounting for testers serving size, grams per day, consumption experience, etc). Truthfully though – now that I know it, there are signs all around that have always pointed to this conclusion. Even with the echo chamber on review sites and forums, If you really pay attention to how people describe their experiences of any given batch, you will start to notice just how diverse our opinions can be.

This of course doesn’t mean that peer revies are a waste of time or even unreliable…. Just don’t take them as gospel. There is some real value when it comes to considering the overall the perceived quality of a batch, but I would recommend blindly going big on a batch just because somebody describes it with the characteristics that you love (unless you are priming yourself for the placebo effect - I suppose there is nothing wrong with that).

Finally, I mentioned that there are some situations in which “strain names” are relevant. Some vendors take the liberty or renaming the products to match the customers’ expectations. If I receive something as a “White Thai” that is more like a Relaxing Red – the name is getting changed. Also, we will often give names that are actual descriptors of their origin or technique applied during post-harvest processing. For example – our “30 Year Wild” batches really do come from wild trees where the youngest among them is estimated to be around 30 years old, Wild Hulu Kapuas are from wild trees along the Hulu Kapuas river, and our Lazy Sundae may lead to extremely low productivity, lol. Even with vendors such as ourselves, I will be the first to tell you that you still should go by the name alone… not a single one of our “Balis” actually come from Bali (and neither does anyone else’s unless they picked it there while on vacation).

Chris, you need to repost this in it's on thread. I won't find it later for reference otherwise.